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| R2A (+): __ R2AA (+): __ R2DA(-): __ | R2A (+): __ R2AA (+): __ R2DA(-): __ |
The ClearStream2™ from Antennas Direct is a good deal
Some interest are more valid than others
Reasons to agree
- The desire for financial security is valid, as long as it is not applied in your life in such a way to cause you to disrespect other people's rights.
- In a just society those who act on valid interest do not commit crimes. The more severe the punishment the less valid the interest. In any society the interest of criminals are not considered valid, when actions resulting from their interest, result in illegal behavior. In these situations, they may be guided by valid interest, however the application of their interest, by perhaps overriding other's interest, results in criminal activity.
- For the purposes of this website, viewing things on a whole, the desire for great wealth, would be less valid than mere financial security, because the desire for great wealth, more more likely be used as a motivation to break more laws, than mere financial security.
- All of this is relative, and semantic, but that does not mean we should throw our hands up in the air, and say all motivations are equal. The desire to rape and kill is not seen as a valid in any society, and if we are going to ever make progress in determining the validity of any position, we have to make progress in determining the reasons, and boundaries that start to make valid interest less valid.
We should only participate in discussion groups with members with diverse opinions.
Reasons to agree
- If everybody thinks the same way, someone isn't thinking.
- The typical debate forum is not set up in such a format that it makes examining truth claims to be a very productive experience.
- When you get to forums in which real debate is taking place, people get caught up in all the tedious personal attacks, accusations, oversimplification, and false logic that is typical of modern debate. It is a waste of time just hanging out with people that you already agree with, but it can often be a greater waste of time to try to participate in a meaningful debate in the typical online forum.
# of reasons to agree: 1
# of reasons to disagree: -2
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
Total Idea Score: -1
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
Database of ideas
We should tag every belief with a code. Then we tag other beliefs as reasons to agree or disagree.
Perhaps each belief would get a numeric code in a database, such as 101. Reasons to agree would be number sequentially, like 101a1, 101a2, etc. Reasons to disagree would be labeled 101d1, 101d2, etc.
Reasons to agree with 101a1 would be labeled 101a1a1, and so on.
This way the database could, with some very simple code count the number of reasons to agree or disagree with each idea.
I am looking for help developing an SQL and PHP database. It would create a post for each conclusion, and post reasons to agree and disagree in separate columns.
Here is a Google Code project I created for this:
http://code.google.com/p/ideastockexchange/
Check it out for a better explanation.
No concept man forms is valid unless he integrates it without contradiction into the sum of his knowledge
Reasons to agree
- "A concept" is a belief, or conclusion. The "sum of [one's] knowledge" is all the information, statistics, facts, and arguments that we have rolling around in our head. Valid conclusions take into account real data. Invalid conclusions ignore important data. If we want to believe things that are valid we need to take in accurate data, and ensure that our conclusions don't contradict each other.
There is a Lehigh County, Pennsylvania which is suspiciously close to the name Lehi in the Book of Mormon
Reasons to agree
Reasons to disagree
- There were thousands of towns and cities in America at the time of Joseph Smith. Because some of them have similar names to names in the Book of Mormon doesn't prove much. You would have to do a pretty sophisticated analysis with multiple places in order for it to prove very much statistically.
# of reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to disagree: -1
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
Total Idea Score: -1
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
The names in the Book of Mormon are suspiciously close to the names of Towns around where Joseph Smith grew up
Reasons to agree
Reasons to disagree
Reasons to disagree
- In order to determine this you would have to sit down with a list of Book of Mormon names, and an accurate list of names around Joseph Smith in his time. Some of the list on Anti-Mormon websites have names of cities that were not even settled yet in Book of Mormon times. So you would have to establish that a neutral party is examining the names, and then you would have to determine the probability that the names in the Book of Mormon were not created from towns surrounding Joseph Smith. Even if you did this, you would only generate a probability that Joseph Smith would have generated those names from actual ancient Nephite Laminite names, and it wouldn't really prove very much, but would have to be taken into consideration with other probabilities that Joseph Smith was inspired...
# of reasons to agree: 1
# of reasons to disagree: -1
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -1
Total Idea Score: -1
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
Joseph said he was visited by an angel in his room, but he couldn't have, because he shared the room with his brothers, and they would have seeing it. -2
Reasons to agree: +1
Reasons to disagree: -3
- Joseph intentionally misled people about his "visit" by the angel Moroni.
Reasons to disagree: -3
- If you believe Joseph had a supernatural experience, he could have had a real vision from God, but it could have been while he slept.
- God has to modify you in order to be able to see spiritual things. LDS people people call this being translated. We cannot, under normal circumstances, perceive spiritual matter or things with normal vision. (D&C 131:7-8) Joseph had to be blessed to hear and see a divine messenger. Others were not so blessed, and so would hear and see nothing. If God can send an angel he can keep the audience to that which he wishes.
- You don't have to assume that God actively dulled his family member's senses in order to have an Angel speak to Joseph, only that Joseph's senses were enriched.
Joseph Smith lied about an Angel visiting him -2
Reasons to agree: +1
Reasons to disagree
Reasons to agree: +1
Reasons to disagree: -0
Reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -3
Reasons to agree: +1 -3 = -2
Reasons to disagree
Reasons to agree: +1
Reasons to disagree: -0
Reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -3
Reasons to agree: +1 -3 = -2
Some critics of the LDS church will not consider the possibility that the LDS church may be true +2
Reasons to agree
- It never crossed their minds.
- It seems so uncool
# of reasons to agree: 2
# of reasons to disagree: -0
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0
Total Idea Score: 2
"Some things that are true are not very useful." Elder Boyd K. Packer
Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).
The statement is this: "There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful..."
http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/21.3Packer.pdf
Reasons to agree (with packer)
Reasons to agree (with packer)
- Joseph Smith taught the following in May 1843, later recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 131:6: “It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.” So why is Packer trying to keep some truths from us?
- We should be allowed to determine for ourselves what is "useful".
LDS Church leader Elder Boyd K. Packer did not show enough respect for the truth when used the fact that, "If not properly written or properly taught [LDS History] may be a faith destroyer" as a reason to hide uncomfortable facts.
Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).
Reasons to agree: +2
- "Properly taught" in this sense can mean nothing else but to hide the negative, and exaggerate the positive.
- Gordon B. Hinckley disagreed and said: "Well, we have nothing to hide. Our history is an open book. They may find what they are looking for, but the fact is the history of the church is clear and open and leads to faith and strength and virtues." ~ Dec. 25, 2005 interview with The Associated Press
"There is no such thing as an accurate, objective history of the LDS Church without consideration of the spiritual powers that attend this work" BKP
Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).
Reasons to agree
Reasons to agree
- Any church could say this, but if they all set logic aside, their is no way to advocate one above the other. People will be forever trapped within a certain faith tradition, without saying that one is better than another in a logical, informed sort of way. You just have fru-fru- and la-de-da to back you up, and everyone just ignores anything the other guys say, because they aren't looking at the world through the correct contact lenses.
- If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church, you would see more blessings in the lives of its members.
- If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church its leaders would have said fewer stupid things.
- If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church its leaders would have made fewer mistakes.
- The spiritual powers of the church, are promised to bring practical results, and so if the church has spiritual powers, they should be measurable in improved lifestyle. The church says it is a very practical church. Their is no separation of spiritual and temporal commandments. Work, life, and death, and everything in between are spiritual. We accept truth from any source. Life processes themselves teach us spiritual lessons. The Gospel is supposed to help you live a better happier life. That the special gospel that we teach is especially good a creating a zion-like society. We tell our members that we have prophets to lead us, and help us avoid the problems that the rest of the world struggles with, however this sets the church up to be easily measured by sociologist, and it turns out that we don't have lower divorce, suicide, child abuse, and Utah has twice the national average of per-capita antidepressant use.
- We need real, tangible ways of measuring the effect of religion in people's lives. Saying that you have to measure a church by the spirit, means that you measure it from person experience, and anecdotal experience is not as trustworthy statistical studies.
It is hard to know for sure when the spirit has told you something is real, and so you should be able to back up your decision with logic
Reasons to agree
- If everyone says they are doing what God tells them to, and that we don't have to have logic, then each religion could have absolute moral authority, while all advocating the opposite conclusions.
- “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14).
If the spirit tells you the Church is true, then you are going against the spirit when you investigate negative aspects of the Church.
Reasons to agree
- It is hard to know for sure when the spirit has told you something is real, and so you should be able to back up your decision with logic.
(-1) Some things that are true are not very useful
Reasons to agree
- We should judge the world, according to Gospel principles, not the church according to worldly principles
- The end does not justify the means.
- Just because truth is critical of your church doesn't mean truth should be altered.
We should examine LDS history, unafraid of the truth.
Reasons to agree
- Gordon B. Hinckley: "Well, we have nothing to hide. Our history is an open book. They may find what they are looking for, but the fact is the history of the church is clear and open and leads to faith and strength and virtues." ~ Dec. 25, 2005 interview with The Associated Press
- God is a God of Truth
- God doesn't need us to lie for him
- Some things that are true are not very useful.
- If the spirit tells you the Church is true, then you are going against the spirit when you investigate negative aspects of the Church.
The LDS focus on white shirts is cult like
Reasons to agree
- Cults focus on controlling every aspects of their member's lives.
- I would say 90% of people who grew up in the 80s were told they couldn't pass the sacrament if they weren't wearing a white shirt.
- You get weird looks at church if you don't wear a white shirt.
- Catholic priest all wear the same uniform. In the Mormon church ever male member is a holder of the priesthood.
- The white shirt and tie is sort of arbitrary, but it is seen throughout the world as a more formal attire, and the church leaders don't want to be informal.
Explanations of symbolism associated with white shirt don't make any sense
Reasons to agree
- If a white shirt is a symbol of righteousness, aren't black pants, shoes, belts, and suits a symbol of evil?
- Just because you can take the white shirt idea to weird extremes doesn't mean it is bad.
- Lots of good things can be twisted to weird extremes.
With the LDS church's racial problems, they should avoid promoting white shirts as a sign of purity
Reasons to disagree
- Skin is different than clothes. People understand that every culture inderstands that white clothes can be a symbol of cleanliness.
- "White people" aren't white, they are a sort of pinkish, tan-ish, off white...
- White people don't want to be too white.
- No one said that albino is pure.
Mormons claim their leaders have exclusive authority to act in God's behalf.
Reasons to agree
- This is one of the most fundamental of all LDS teachers.
- Gospel principles says: "Many people live in darkness, unsure of God’s will. They believe that the heavens are closed and that people must face the world’s perils alone. How fortunate are the Latter-day Saints! We know that God communicates to the Church through His prophet. With grateful hearts, Saints the world over sing the hymn, “We thank thee, O God, for a prophet to guide us in these latter days” (Hymns, no. 19). "When a prophet speaks for God, it is as if God were speaking (see D&C 1:38) Gospel principles says; We have a prophet living on the earth today. This prophet is the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He has the right to revelation for the entire Church. He holds “the keys of the kingdom,” meaning that he has the authority to direct the entire Church and kingdom of God on earth, including the administration of priesthood ordinances (see Matthew 16:19). No person except the chosen prophet and President can receive God’s will for the entire membership of the Church. The Lord said, “There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred” (D&C 132:7). The President of the Church is assisted by his counselors in the First Presidency and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve, who are also prophets, seers, and revelators. We should do those things the prophets tell us to do. President Wilford Woodruff said that a prophet will never be allowed to lead the Church astray: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff [2004], 199).
# of reasons to agree: +2
# of reasons to disagree: -0
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0
Total Idea Score: +2
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
(+10) LDS leaders claim to have God's authority when they tell people what to do, however they claim they never said they were infallible when they want to change their minds +12
Reasons to agree
- (+6) Mormons don't claim their prophets are infallible.
- (+2) Mormons claim their leaders have exclusive authority to act in God's behalf.
- (+2) The LDS Church has changed doctrines too much for people to worry about following it
- Mormon prophets disagree. +2
- Some LDS church leaders use logic to promote their views, not just appeals to their authority.
# of reasons to agree: +4
# of reasons to disagree: -1
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +10
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0
Total Idea Score: +12
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
Mormons believe in the Bible
Reasons to agree and disagree
- Mormon high school students study the Old Testament one year, and the New Testament the next year.
- Walk into any LDS church and you will see hundreds of Bibles that are well read, and marked.
# of reasons to agree: +2
# of reasons to disagree: -0
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0
Total Idea Score: +2
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
The Bible teaches that prophets are not infallible.
Reasons to agree
- Writing about the Old Testament prophet Elijah, James said that he was “a man subject to like passions as we are” (James 5:17).
- Jeremiah got so mad at God that he claimed the Lord had “deceived” him and he swore he would never speak in the name of the Lord again (see Jeremiah 20:7, 9.)
- Even Peter and Paul had disagreements (see Galatians 2:11-14).
# of reasons to agree: +3
# of reasons to disagree: -0
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0
Total Idea Score: +3
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
Mormons don't claim their prophets are infallible
Reasons to agree
- Mormons believe in the Bible (+2), and the Bible teaches that prophets are not infallible (+3).
- LDS prophets have said they are not perfect.
# of reasons to agree: +2
# of reasons to disagree: -0
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +5
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0
Total Idea Score: +7
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
The LDS church emphasizes genealogy too much +3
Reasons to agree: +3
Scriptures that agree: +1
Scriptures that disagree: -1
Score:
# of reasons to agree: 3
Scriptures that agree: 1
Scriptures that agree: -1
Total Idea Score: 3
- Life is short.
- Living people need things.
- If we need help from God anyways to do our family history work back to Adam, then that means the pressure is off of us to do it now.
Scriptures that agree: +1
- Matt. 8: 21-23 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Scriptures that disagree: -1
- Mal. 4: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Score:
# of reasons to agree: 3
Scriptures that agree: 1
Scriptures that agree: -1
Total Idea Score: 3
The Book of Mormon is racist
Reasons to agree:
- It is racist that the dark skinned people in the Book of Mormon had their skin turned white, if they are righteous.
Reasons to disagree:
- Some people say the Book of Mormon is racist against the darker skinned people of the book, because some of the authors say some quotes that sound pretty bad. However the whole book says that they were the more righteous people, and that all the white people were killed off. There were many parts of the book that authors say that the Laminates were more righteous than the Nephites.
# of reasons to agree: +1
# of reasons to disagree: -1
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0
Total Idea Score: -0
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
The Book of Mormon teaches good things
Reasons to agree
- The pride cycle, as taught in the book of Mormon, is important.
- The danger of gangs (secrete combinations), as taught in the book of Mormon, might turn out important.
- The Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus came to more than just the Israelites, which, if it is true, is neat.
- The Book of Mormon doesn't teach anything new.
- The Book of Mormon, like the Old Testament, justifies killing the defenseless (Nephi Killing an unconscious Laban).
- The Book of Mormon is racist(0).
# of reasons to agree: +3
# of reasons to disagree: -3
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0
Total Idea Score: -2
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
If Joseph Smith told big lies than the Mormon church must not be inspired
Reasons to disagree
- Scholars don't believe that Paul really wrote all the books attributed to him. If lies about your church's founding mean that your church is wrong, then no Christian churches are true.
The fact that cool doctrines didn't come from the Church until educated people joined the Mormon church leads you to believe that Joseph Smith might not have been the author of these doctrines
Reasons to disagree
- Its a nice idea, but no one came forward and said, Joseph Smith's ideas about the pre-mortal existence, baptisms for the dead, the quorum of the 12 apostles, or anything else, really came from them, did they?
Joseph Smith had relationships with women so much younger than him, that it shows that he did not value them as intellectual or spiritual beings +3
Reasons to agree: +4
- Joseph was 38 when he married Helen Mar Kimball who was only 14. She continued to live with her parents, and never married lived with Joseph. When she grew up she married someone else, and never seemed to have had sex with Joseph. They were trying to just seal people to each other, but still it seems weird that Joseph would seal her to him as a wife. Why didn't he just adopt her as a daughter?
- Joseph Smith was 28 when he had an affair, or a plural marriage with Fanny Alger who was 16.
- Joseph Smith was 37 when he married Sarah Ann Whitney who was 17 years old.
- Statements by William Law and Eliza R. Snow indicate that the marriages included sexual intimacy.[121][122] "Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this." - Joseph Smith's close confidant and LDS Church First Councilor, William Law, Interview in Salt Lake Tribune, July 31, 188. When Heber C. Kimball asked Sister Eliza R. Snow the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith, she replied, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that." - Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.
- No DNA evidence exist that Joseph Smith fathered any other children than with his wife Emma. Most historians agree that Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, taught and practiced polygamy during his ministry, and married several dozen women during his lifetime, even though Smith, and the leading quorums of his church, publicly denied he taught or practiced it.[1][2][3] Additionally, after his death, several women were "sealed" to him.[4]
If you say that Joseph Smith was evil, then you have to say that many of the Popes were evil
Reasons to agree
- According to the same logic you would condemn all the apostles for the greed of Judas and the cowardice of Peter
# of reasons to agree: +13
# of reasons to disagree: -1
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0
Total Idea Score: +12
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
It is worse for the Mormon church if Joseph Smith was evil, than it is for the Catholic church if some of the Popes were evil
Reasons to agree
- Catholics can say that they had some evil Popes, but that was just a time that the Church was struggling. They can also point at very good popes. They don't have a Pope, that some say was evil, that started the whole thing.
- It may be a little bit worse, but it is essentially saying the same thing. It is saying that sure churches may be a little bit inspired, but they are not very inspired. If you want to find a little bit of meaning from your Church, that is fine, but it is sort of Stupid to put a whole lot of faith in a Church that would make real big mistakes.
- If your church made real big mistakes in the past, or its leaders weren't much better than you, why should you totally alter your life, doing what it says, when what it is telling you might be a mistake also.
# of reasons to agree: +1
# of reasons to disagree: -2
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0
Total Idea Score: -2
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.
There is more reason to say that Joseph Smith had bad motivation than Moses
Reasons to agree
Reasons to disagree
- Moses, to the best of our knowledge, never used it position as a way to increase the number of his sexual partners.
Reasons to disagree
- Moses killed an Egyptian. If you applied the same methods of judging Moses, that some want you to judge Joseph Smith then he would not come out looking to good.
Saying Joseph Smith was power hungry is like saying Moses is power hungry
Reasons to agree:
- Power does not always corrupt.
- People can have noble motives to lead.
- There is more reason to say that Joseph Smith had bad motivation than Moses.
Joseph Smith seemed to like power -1
Reasons to agree:
- Joseph liked dressing in Military uniforms.
- Joseph ran for president.
Reasons to disagree:
# of reasons to agree: 2
# of reasons to disagree: -1
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -2
Total Idea Score: -1
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change
Scriptures that agree
Scriptures that disagree
Interest of those who agree
Interest of those who disagree
Common Interest
Opposing Interest
Videos That agree
Videos That disagree
Website that agree
Websites that disagree
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