Showing posts with label Leaders. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Leaders. Show all posts

LDS Church leaders have made too many mistakes to be considered inspired.


Reasons to agree: +


  1. LDS Church Leaders made a mistake when they advocated the practice of Polygamy.

  2. LDS Church leaders have often prophesied things that did not happen. +2

  3. The treatment by LDS leaders to Black men indicates that the church is not inspired +0

  4. Whenever the LDS Church changes doctrine, they admit they made a mistake in the past. The LDS Church has changed doctrines too much for people to worry about following it

  5. LDS Church Leaders made a mistake when they taught the Adam-God Theory. 

  6. LDS Church Leaders made a mistake when they said the Catholic Church was the "Great and Abominable Church of Satan". 

  7. LDS Church Leaders made a mistake when they denied blacks the priesthood until 1978.

  8. LDS Church Leaders made a mistake when they prevented women from giving prayers in Sacrament meetings until 1978. 


Reasons to disagree:

  1. Inspiration does not mean infallibility: LDS Church leaders, being human, are susceptible to making mistakes. These mistakes do not necessarily invalidate their inspiration.
  2. Contextual interpretation: Some actions that are now viewed as mistakes were considered appropriate or necessary within their historical context.
  3. Evolution of doctrines: Changes in doctrines could be seen as signs of growth and evolution, not necessarily mistakes.
  4. Divine timing: Some could argue that changes, such as the inclusion of black men and women in different church roles, came about in the divine timing of God, not at the discretion of church leaders.
  5. Spiritual confirmation: Many followers claim to have received personal spiritual confirmation of the inspiration of the leaders.

Books that agree/disagree:

  1. Agree: "No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith" by Fawn M. Brodie offers a critical look at LDS Church history.
  2. Disagree: "Lengthen Your Stride: The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball" by Edward L. Kimball provides a faith-affirming perspective of LDS Church leadership.

The interest of those who agree/disagree:

  1. Agree Those who have experienced or observed actions by the LDS Church that they believe were harmful or wrong. This might include former members or critics of the church.
  2. Disagree Current members of the LDS Church who maintain a strong faith and belief in the divine inspiration of the church's leaders.

Unstated assumptions:

  1. Agree: This viewpoint assumes that making mistakes is incompatible with being divinely inspired. It also assumes that doctrinal changes are admissions of past mistakes.
  2. Disagree: This viewpoint assumes that human beings, even if inspired, can make mistakes. It also assumes that changes in doctrines or policies can be reflective of divine inspiration and guidance, adapting to changing societal contexts.

It is wrong for LDS church leaders to tell their members to find their testimony in the bearing of it +3







  1. "The oblique paradox of propaganda is that the lie in the throat becomes, by repetition, the truth in the heart". ~ John Grierson

  2. It is wrong to lie. 

  3. The True to the Faith Pamphlet given to every young person in the Church, says the following: "Your testimony will increase as you share it. Do not wait for your testimony to be fully developed before you share it. Part of a testimony’s development comes when it is shared. In fact, you will find that when you give what you have of your testimony, it will be returned to you—with increase." THIS IS TELLING KIDS TO LIE. TO SAY THEY KNOW THE CHURCH IS TRUE, BEFORE THEY REALLY DO!





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# of reasons to agree: 3





# of reasons to disagree: -0




# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0




# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0




Total Idea Score: +3









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LDS Church leaders have changed many core doctrines







Reasons to agree: +




  1. Heber C. Kimball, an LDS prophet, said, “Some quietly listen to those who speak against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have half-a-dozen devils with them all the time. You might as well deny ‘Mormonism,’ and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose the doctrine, and the whole of them will be damned.” Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203:

  2. LDS prophets have taught that God required Polygam, then condemned polygamy.

  3. LDS prophets have taught that God was Adam, and that he was not Adam. 

  4. LDS prophets have were very late to support civil rights.




Reasons to disagree: -





Images That agree: +2


















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Scriptures that disagree: -





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Valid Interest of those who agree: +

Valid Interest of those who disagree: -





Videos That agree: +

Videos That disagree: -



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Unbiased Experts who agree: +

Unbiased Experts who disagree: -








# of reasons to agree: +0


# of reasons to disagree: -0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0


Total Idea Score: 0





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Common Interest:

Opposing Interest:



Related arguments:









LDS Church leaders have often prophesied things that did not happen. +2





RTA


  1. "The Church and kingdom to which we belong will become the kingdom of our God and his Christ, and brother Brigham Young will become President of the United States. [Voices responded, “Amen.”] And I tell you he will be something more; but we do not now want to give him the name: but he is called and ordained to a far greater station than that, and he is foreordained to take that station, and he has got it; and I am Vice-President, and brother Wells is the Secretary of the Interior—yes, and of all the armies in the flesh. You don't believe that; but I can tell you it is one of the smallest things that I can think of. You may think that I am joking; but I am perfectly willing that brother Long should write every word of it; for I can see it, just as naturally as I see the earth and the productions thereof."  (Elder Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 5-213)

  2. "In the days of Joseph it was considered a great privilege to be permitted to speak to a member of Congress, but twenty-six years will not pass away before the Elders of this Church will be as much thought of as the kings on their thrones." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 4, page 41)

  3. "...it was the will of God that those who went Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 2:182)".





  1.  Gordon B. Hinkley told the story of Joseph in Egypts's 7 years of feast and 7 years of famine, before the global financial bubble burst. 












# of reasons to agree: 3





# of reasons to disagree: -1




# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0




# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0




Total Idea Score: 2









Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change







Images That agree:4













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The LDS church does not have a good system for picking its leaders






  1.  It is cool to have other people choose you... it proves that its not just an ego trip, that you aspired to it



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    # of reasons to agree: 0
    # of reasons to disagree: -1
    # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
    # of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
    Total Idea Score: -1


    Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

    LDS church leaders shouldn't claim they are prophets without giving any prophecies






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      # of reasons to agree: 0
      # of reasons to disagree: -0
      # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
      # of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
      Total Idea Score: 0


      Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

      Brigham Young believed that the moon and sun were inhabited.



      1. "Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271)

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      Many LDS Church leaders were chauvinistic


      The LDS church is too authoritarian.






      1. The LDS church over emphasizes the stories about (blind or inspired) obedience: such as the story of Adam doing sacrifices before he knew why, the messed up Abraham story, Joseph asking people for their wives, etc. But David O. McKay told Bruce R. McConkie not to publish Mormon Doctrine, but he did it any way. It seems as though Church leaders want authority when they tell others to obey them, but don't really like having the authority of others usurped over their free will. 





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      # of reasons to disagree: -0




      # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0




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      Total Idea Score: 0










      Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change





      LDS leaders do not seem more inspired than other Church's leaders.

      1. Confirmation Bias keeps many Mormons in the Church. 

      2. When others' religious leaders get it wrong, it's called corruption and apostasy. But when your religious leaders get it wrong, its just a mistake, and after all no one is perfect. 

      3. Their are many examples of LDS prophets contradicting each other.

      4. There have been some major doctrinal changes in the LDS church

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      1.   Confirmation Bias

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          # of reasons to agree: 0
          # of reasons to disagree: -0
          # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
          # of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
          Total Idea Score: 0


          Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change