Showing posts with label LDS Scriptures: Book of Mormon. Show all posts
Showing posts with label LDS Scriptures: Book of Mormon. Show all posts

May 15, 2011

DNA analysis proves that Native Americans are not descendants of Israel


Reasons to Agree:

List of Reasons

  1. Genetic Markers Indicate Asian Ancestry: Scientists have analyzed the genetic markers of all living Native Americans, and none carry markers consistent with people from the Middle East. Instead, Native American genetic markers align with those from the Altay Mountains region of Central Asia.

  2. Scientific Consensus on Genetic Testing: DNA analysis is a reliable method for tracing ancestry, and no peer-reviewed genetic research supports a Middle Eastern origin for Native Americans.

  3. Theological Implications of DNA Alteration: If God altered DNA to hide evidence of a sacred book, it contradicts the idea of a God of Truth. A deity who deceives is not worthy of worship and would cease to be God.

Faith-Based Argument:

  1. God could have changed the DNA of native Americans to test the faith of Mormons.

Score Analysis:

Scoring Criteria

  • # of Reasons to Agree: 3

  • # of Reasons to Disagree: 1

  • # of Reasons to Agree with Reasons to Agree: 0

  • # of Reasons to Disagree with Reasons to Agree: 0

  • Total Idea Score: Pending evaluation of individual argument scores.


Scriptures that agree: +


Scriptures that disagree: -

  1. Promoting their book (Simon G. Southerton)

  2. Promoting the truth
  1. Promoting their career (Apologist)

  2. Promoting the truth

Common Interest
  1. Promoting the truth
Opposing Interest

  1.  Promoting the truth

  2. Promoting the Church

  3. Promoting gospel narratives that don't seem to contradict scientific based world views

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change



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Native American Indians are not descendants of Israel

Reasons to Disagree:

List of Reasons

  1. Faith-Based Argument: Some believe that God could have changed the DNA of Native Americans to test the faith of Mormons.

Score Analysis:

Scoring Criteria

  • # of Reasons to Agree: 3

  • # of Reasons to Disagree: 1

  • # of Reasons to Agree with Reasons to Agree: 0

  • # of Reasons to Disagree with Reasons to Agree: 0

  • Total Idea Score: Pending evaluation of individual argument scores.

Supporting Evidence:

Evidence Scores

  • Books That Agree:

    • Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church – Simon G. Southerton (More Books)

  • Scriptures That Agree: None identified.

  • Scriptures That Disagree: None identified.

  • Legal References That Agree:
    Local, Federal, and International Laws

Interests and Motivations:

Interest Analysis

  • Interest of Those Who Agree:

    • Promoting their book (Simon G. Southerton)

    • Promoting scientific accuracy and truth

  • Interest of Those Who Disagree:

    • Promoting their careers as religious apologists

    • Defending religious beliefs and faith-based narratives

  • Common Interests:

    • Seeking and promoting the truth

  • Opposing Interests:

    • Defending institutional religious narratives

    • Reconciling religious faith with scientific evidence

Media That Supports the Idea:

Media Analysis

Multimedia Analysis:

Potential Benefits of Accepting This Idea:

List of Benefits

  • Increased acceptance of scientific evidence in religious discussions.

  • Improved understanding of Native American ancestry and history.

  • Encouragement of open dialogue between science and religion.

Conclusion:

If you disagree with the score or analysis, you can contribute by posting additional reasons to agree or disagree. Each contribution will affect the total idea score, ensuring a dynamic and community-driven evaluation process.

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It is a problem for the Mormon Church that the Book of Mormon Says That the Jews Are the Principal Ancestors of the American Indians.

Reasons to Agree:

List of Reasons

  1. Book of Mormon Introduction Statement: The introduction to the Book of Mormon states: "Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel."

  2. Historical Teachings of the LDS Church: Many past statements from LDS Church leaders, including Joseph Smith and early church authorities, affirmed that Native Americans were direct descendants of the Jews.

  3. Scriptural Support in the Book of Mormon: Various passages in the Book of Mormon (e.g., 2 Nephi 3:3, Alma 10:3) describe the Lamanites as being of the house of Israel, reinforcing the claim of Jewish ancestry.

Reasons to Disagree:

List of Reasons

  1. Modern DNA Evidence: Genetic studies have consistently shown that Native American populations trace ancestry back to Central and East Asia rather than the Middle East. See Wikipedia - Genetics and the Book of Mormon.

  2. LDS Church Cover-Up and Revisionism: The introduction to the Book of Mormon was revised in 2006, changing "principal ancestors" to "among the ancestors," demonstrating an Orwellian attempt to rewrite history while maintaining claims of prophetic infallibility.

  3. Infallibility vs. Changing Doctrine: LDS leaders claim to speak directly to God and declare the Book of Mormon the most correct book ever written. However, historical revisions and doctrinal shifts suggest a pattern of altering past claims while insisting on prophetic authority.

  4. Parallel to Political Rewriting of History: Just as political scandals (e.g., Whitewater, Trump's January 6th justifications) involve covering up mistakes while asserting authority, the LDS leadership similarly revises past teachings while maintaining claims of infallibility.

Score Analysis:

Scoring Criteria

  • # of Reasons to Agree: 3

  • # of Reasons to Disagree: 4

  • # of Reasons to Agree with Reasons to Agree: 0

  • # of Reasons to Disagree with Reasons to Agree: 0

  • Total Idea Score: 3-4=-1

Supporting Evidence:

Evidence Scores

Interests and Motivations:

Interest Analysis

  • The interest of Those Who Agree:

    • Exposing historical and doctrinal revisions

    • Promoting scientific and genetic research

    • Advocating historical accuracy in religious narratives

  • The interest of Those Who Disagree:

    • Defending traditional LDS teachings

    • Upholding religious faith in the Book of Mormon

  • Common Interests:

    • Seeking and promoting truth

  • Opposing Interests:

    • Defending faith-based interpretations vs. scientific evidence

    • Maintaining institutional credibility

Media That Supports the Idea:

Media Analysis

Multimedia Analysis:

Potential Benefits of Accepting This Idea:

List of Benefits

  • Greater understanding of LDS doctrine and its evolution over time.

  • Improved reconciliation between religious faith and scientific findings.

  • Encouragement of open dialogue between faith communities and academia.

  • Increased awareness of institutional revisionism and historical accuracy.

Conclusion:

If you disagree with the score or analysis, you can contribute by posting additional reasons to agree or disagree. Each contribution will affect the total idea score, ensuring a dynamic and community-driven evaluation process.

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May 8, 2011

A man will get nearer to God by abiding by the Book of Mormon's precepts than by any other book -1










  1. The New Testament will get you closer to God than the Book of Mormon.


























    # of reasons to agree: 0







    # of reasons to disagree: -1






    # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0






    # of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0






    Total Idea Score: -1














    Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change






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    May 7, 2011

    There are so many problems with the Book of Mormon that you should disregard spiritual feeling you think you have when reading it

    1. Spiritual feelings, if no stronger than feelings you get when watching Pixar movies, should not over-rule logic. 

    2. Real spiritual guidance should not be ignored, but most Mormons report no more than mild warm and fuzzies when reading the book of Mormon, but often squirm when reading some of the embarrassing parts of the book. Those feelings of embarrassment are just as valid as feelings of enlightenment.

    3.  Of course, you should not disregard real spiritual answers, but you should be aware of confirmation bias, and ensure that spiritual guidance you receive is of a different nature than spiritual confirmation others receive to stay in their religions. 

    1. The Book of Mormon has many inspiring quotes. 

    2. The Book of Mormon has many inspiring stories.



    # of reasons to agree: 3
    # of reasons to disagree: -2
    # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
    # of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
    Total Idea Score: 1


    Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change
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    Apr 30, 2011

    There are some aspects of the Book of Mormon that support a literal historical interpretation +0


    Reasons to agree: +1


    1. Latter-day Saint President John Taylor was right when he wrote: "Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being". The fact that south american cultures believed in a bearded white God named Quetzalcoatl supports the story in the Book of Mormon. 



    Reasons to disagree: -1




    1. The Bible has enough problems with historical accuracy. If you are going to come along and start a new religion, and say that God has placed his official stamp of approval on this new religion, with new scriptures, the new scriptures should have less problems than the old scriptures, which have been around a long time so that errors of mankind can slip into the things of God... However the Book of Mormon has more archaeological problems than the Bible. There is no city in the Book of Mormon, that you can say existed in then and still exists now... I know, I know, Mormons will say you can't compare the two because the people who lived in cities, and kept written records, according to the Book of Mormon, were all killed off at the end of the Book... But still... we have some archaeology from that time, and it does not compare well to the amount of archaeology that we have to support the rest of Christianity. Right? I'm not an expert, but that is my impression. Is there any way of quantifying this? 









    # of reasons to agree: +1


    # of reasons to disagree: -1


    # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0


    # of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0


    Total Idea Score: +0





    Scriptures that agree: +


    Scriptures that disagree: -



    Images That agree: +

    Images That disagree: -



    Valid Interest of those who agree: +

    Valid Interest of those who disagree: -





    Videos That agree: +

    Videos That disagree: -





    Website that agree: +

    Websites that disagree: -






    Podcast that agree: +

    Podcast that disagree: -



    Unbiased Experts who agree: +

    Unbiased Experts who disagree: -



    Books that Agree: +

    Books that Agree: -











    Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.





    Common Interest:

    Opposing Interest:



    Related arguments:




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    Apr 27, 2011

    Book of Mormon anachronistic do not prove the Book of Mormon is false.

    Reasons to agree:



    1. Someone on the other side perhaps Nephi in a ‘postmortem’ state provided the anachronistic Isaiah material.” (I'm not sure I follow this line of thought. It it assuming that this person provided a more accurate version of Isiah? I'm not sure how getting help from an Angel would explain problems with Isaiah in 2nd Nephi any differently than getting the translation from the Urim and Thummim.
    2. Jesus could have intentionally communicated the Isaiah anachronisms to Mormon and Moroni.


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    Apr 24, 2011

    The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is currently no evidence in pre-Columbian history +7




    1. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Silk, which there is no evidence to support. I don't even think the silk worm lived in North or South America. (Ether 9:17: "Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things."

    2. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Linen, which there is no evidence to support. (Ether 9:17: "Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things."

    3. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had cattle, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:18: "And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man."

    4. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Oxen, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:18: "And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man."

    5. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had horses, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:19: "And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.."

    6. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had asses, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:19: "And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.."

    7. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had sheep, swine, goats, elephants wheat barley, figs, grapes, silk, steel, bellows, brass, breast plates, chains, iron working, plows, swords, scimitars, and chariots. The Smithsonian Institution has stated that "none of the principal food plants and domestic animals of the Old World (except the dog) were present in the New World before Columbus."









    # of reasons to agree: +7





    # of reasons to disagree: -0




    # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0




    # of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0




    Total Idea Score: 7









    Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

























    Website that agree














    Websites that disagree












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    It is a problem for the Mormon Church that the Book of Mormon Says That the Jews Are the Principal Ancestors of the American Indians, but they were not +3


    Reasons to Agree:

    List of Reasons

    1. Book of Mormon Introduction Statement: The introduction to the Book of Mormon states: "Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel."

    2. Historical Teachings of the LDS Church: Many past statements from LDS Church leaders, including Joseph Smith and early church authorities, affirmed that Native Americans were direct descendants of the Jews.

    3. Scriptural Support in the Book of Mormon: Various passages in the Book of Mormon (e.g., 2 Nephi 3:3, Alma 10:3) describe the Lamanites as being of the house of Israel, reinforcing the claim of Jewish ancestry.

    Reasons to Disagree:

    List of Reasons

    1. Modern DNA Evidence: Genetic studies have consistently shown that Native American populations trace ancestry back to Central and East Asia rather than the Middle East. See Wikipedia - Genetics and the Book of Mormon.

    2. LDS Church Cover-Up and Revisionism: The introduction to the Book of Mormon was revised in 2006, changing "principal ancestors" to "among the ancestors," demonstrating an Orwellian attempt to rewrite history while maintaining claims of prophetic infallibility.

    3. Infallibility vs. Changing Doctrine: LDS leaders claim to speak directly to God and declare the Book of Mormon the most correct book ever written. However, historical revisions and doctrinal shifts suggest a pattern of altering past claims while insisting on prophetic authority.

    4. Parallel to Political Rewriting of History: Just as political scandals (e.g., Whitewater, Trump's January 6th justifications) involve covering up mistakes while asserting authority, the LDS leadership similarly revises past teachings while maintaining claims of infallibility.

    Score Analysis:

    Scoring Criteria

    • # of Reasons to Agree: 3

    • # of Reasons to Disagree: 4

    • # of Reasons to Agree with Reasons to Agree: 0

    • # of Reasons to Disagree with Reasons to Agree: 0

    • Total Idea Score: 3-4=-1

    Supporting Evidence:

    Evidence Scores

    Interests and Motivations:

    Interest Analysis

    • The interest of Those Who Agree:

      • Exposing historical and doctrinal revisions

      • Promoting scientific and genetic research

      • Advocating historical accuracy in religious narratives

    • The interest of Those Who Disagree:

      • Defending traditional LDS teachings

      • Upholding religious faith in the Book of Mormon

    • Common Interests:

      • Seeking and promoting truth

    • Opposing Interests:

      • Defending faith-based interpretations vs. scientific evidence

      • Maintaining institutional credibility

    Media That Supports the Idea:

    Media Analysis

    Multimedia Analysis:

    Potential Benefits of Accepting This Idea:

    List of Benefits

    • Greater understanding of LDS doctrine and its evolution over time.

    • Improved reconciliation between religious faith and scientific findings.

    • Encouragement of open dialogue between faith communities and academia.

    • Increased awareness of institutional revisionism and historical accuracy.

    Conclusion:

    If you disagree with the score or analysis, you can contribute by posting additional reasons to agree or disagree. Each contribution will affect the total idea score, ensuring a dynamic and community-driven evaluation process.



    Posted by at No comments:
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    Apr 21, 2011

    The Book of Mormon is True -9





    Background Context and Assumptions

    By true I mean that it really was somewhat inspired by God. That the stories in the Book of Mormon happened pretty much the way they are written, except if Joseph Smith made some of it up, if he was having a bad day, but in general most of it is true.



    As you see, I am trying to present both sides, and go where the algorithm takes me, but don't tell me that everything in the Bible is 100% true, and non contradictory. Were there two angels or 3 at the Tomb? Which version of Jesus's ancestry was accurate? What about all the other differences between the Gosples. There are hundreds if not Thousands.



    No one on this planet who is smart accepts that every single word in the Book of Mormon or Bible are 100% accurate.



    Reasons to agree (that the Book of Mormon is "true"): +5




    1. It is acceptable to define true as inspiring.+0 If you define true as inspiring, you can say the Book of Mormon is true. 

    2. The theory that the Book of Mormon is an ancient American history is deemed to fall outside the pale of academic credibility. 

    3. If you ask God if the Book of Mormon is true, and you are righteous, he will tell you that it is by giving you a comforting warm feeling.  

    4. A man will get nearer to God by abiding by the Book of Mormon's precepts than by any other book.





    1. The book of Mormon contains too many 19th century points of view to be what it claims to be: an ancient text. 

    2. There are too many historical problems with the book of Mormon to say that it is "true". -11

    3. The Book of Mormon has so many problems with it, that personal belief that God told that it is true must be inaccurate. 

    4. A warm and fuzzy feeling when reading or praying about the Book of Mormon should not be taken as evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon unless individually you have weighed the problems of the historicity of the book. 

    5. There are not enough inspiring stories in the Book of Mormon to think that God would go to all the problem of bringing it forward. 


















      # of reasons to agree: 4





      # of reasons to disagree: -5




      # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +2




      # of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -11




      Total Idea Score: -10










      Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change





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      1. The Book of Mormon is True, and so the LDS church is true. 

      2. Joseph Smith was inspired, and so the LDS church is true. 

      3. Joseph smith's motivations were pure

      4. If you say that Joseph Smith was evil, then you have to say that many of the Popes were evil

      1. LDS Church leaders have made too many contradicting statements for the Church to be true. 

      2. LDS leaders claim to have God's authority when they tell people what to do, however they claim they never said they were infallible when they want to change their minds

      3. Joseph Smith lied about the Book of Abraham






      Scriptures that disagree



      Interest of those who agree



      Interest of those who disagree



      Common Interest



      Opposing Interest



      Videos That agree

      Videos That disagree



      Website that agree



      Websites that disagree





        # of reasons to agree: 0
        # of reasons to disagree: -0
        # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
        # of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
        Total Idea Score: 0


        Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change
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