Our Platform for Outlining Colorado’s Future

Nov 9, 2010

"Some things that are true are not very useful." Elder Boyd K. Packer

Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).

The statement is this: "There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful..."

http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/21.3Packer.pdf

Reasons to agree (with packer)

Reasons to disagree (with packer)

Joseph Smith taught the following in May 1843, later recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 131:6: “It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.” So why is Packer trying to keep some truths from us?
We should be allowed to determine for ourselves what is "useful".

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

LDS Church leader Elder Boyd K. Packer did not show enough respect for the truth when used the fact that, "If not properly written or properly taught [LDS History] may be a faith destroyer" as a reason to hide uncomfortable facts.

Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).

Reasons to agree: +2

"Properly taught" in this sense can mean nothing else but to hide the negative, and exaggerate the positive.

Gordon B. Hinckley disagreed and said: "Well, we have nothing to hide. Our history is an open book. They may find what they are looking for, but the fact is the history of the church is clear and open and leads to faith and strength and virtues." ~ Dec. 25, 2005 interview with The Associated Press

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Nov 8, 2010

"There is no such thing as an accurate, objective history of the LDS Church without consideration of the spiritual powers that attend this work" BKP

Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).

Reasons to agree

Reasons to disagree

Any church could say this, but if they all set logic aside, their is no way to advocate one above the other. People will be forever trapped within a certain faith tradition, without saying that one is better than another in a logical, informed sort of way. You just have fru-fru- and la-de-da to back you up, and everyone just ignores anything the other guys say, because they aren't looking at the world through the correct contact lenses.
If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church, you would see more blessings in the lives of its members.
If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church its leaders would have said fewer stupid things.
If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church its leaders would have made fewer mistakes.
The spiritual powers of the church, are promised to bring practical results, and so if the church has spiritual powers, they should be measurable in improved lifestyle. The church says it is a very practical church. Their is no separation of spiritual and temporal commandments. Work, life, and death, and everything in between are spiritual. We accept truth from any source. Life processes themselves teach us spiritual lessons. The Gospel is supposed to help you live a better happier life. That the special gospel that we teach is especially good a creating a zion-like society. We tell our members that we have prophets to lead us, and help us avoid the problems that the rest of the world struggles with, however this sets the church up to be easily measured by sociologist, and it turns out that we don't have lower divorce, suicide, child abuse, and Utah has twice the national average of per-capita antidepressant use.
We need real, tangible ways of measuring the effect of religion in people's lives. Saying that you have to measure a church by the spirit, means that you measure it from person experience, and anecdotal experience is not as trustworthy statistical studies.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Nov 7, 2010

It is hard to know for sure when the spirit has told you something is real, and so you should be able to back up your decision with logic

Reasons to agree

If everyone says they are doing what God tells them to, and that we don't have to have logic, then each religion could have absolute moral authority, while all advocating the opposite conclusions.

Reasons to disagree

“The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14).

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

If the spirit tells you the Church is true, then you are going against the spirit when you investigate negative aspects of the Church.

Reasons to agree

Some things that are true are not very useful.

Reasons to disagree

It is hard to know for sure when the spirit has told you something is real, and so you should be able to back up your decision with logic.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

(-1) Some things that are true are not very useful

Reasons to agree

We should judge the world, according to Gospel principles, not the church according to worldly principles

Reasons to disagree

The end does not justify the means.

Just because truth is critical of your church doesn't mean truth should be altered.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

We should examine LDS history, unafraid of the truth.

Reasons to agree

Gordon B. Hinckley: "Well, we have nothing to hide. Our history is an open book. They may find what they are looking for, but the fact is the history of the church is clear and open and leads to faith and strength and virtues." ~ Dec. 25, 2005 interview with The Associated Press
God is a God of Truth
God doesn't need us to lie for him

Reasons to agree

Some things that are true are not very useful.
If the spirit tells you the Church is true, then you are going against the spirit when you investigate negative aspects of the Church.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Oct 31, 2010

The LDS focus on white shirts is cult like

Reasons to agree

Cults focus on controlling every aspects of their member's lives.
I would say 90% of people who grew up in the 80s were told they couldn't pass the sacrament if they weren't wearing a white shirt.
You get weird looks at church if you don't wear a white shirt.

Reasons to disagree

Catholic priest all wear the same uniform. In the Mormon church ever male member is a holder of the priesthood.
The white shirt and tie is sort of arbitrary, but it is seen throughout the world as a more formal attire, and the church leaders don't want to be informal.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Explanations of symbolism associated with white shirt don't make any sense

Reasons to agree

If a white shirt is a symbol of righteousness, aren't black pants, shoes, belts, and suits a symbol of evil?

Reasons to disagree

Just because you can take the white shirt idea to weird extremes doesn't mean it is bad.

Lots of good things can be twisted to weird extremes.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

With the LDS church's racial problems, they should avoid promoting white shirts as a sign of purity

Reasons to disagree

Skin is different than clothes. People understand that every culture inderstands that white clothes can be a symbol of cleanliness.
"White people" aren't white, they are a sort of pinkish, tan-ish, off white...
White people don't want to be too white.
No one said that albino is pure.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Mormons claim their leaders have exclusive authority to act in God's behalf.

Reasons to agree

This is one of the most fundamental of all LDS teachers.
Gospel principles says: "Many people live in darkness, unsure of God’s will. They believe that the heavens are closed and that people must face the world’s perils alone. How fortunate are the Latter-day Saints! We know that God communicates to the Church through His prophet. With grateful hearts, Saints the world over sing the hymn, “We thank thee, O God, for a prophet to guide us in these latter days” (Hymns, no. 19). "When a prophet speaks for God, it is as if God were speaking (see D&C 1:38) Gospel principles says; We have a prophet living on the earth today. This prophet is the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He has the right to revelation for the entire Church. He holds “the keys of the kingdom,” meaning that he has the authority to direct the entire Church and kingdom of God on earth, including the administration of priesthood ordinances (see Matthew 16:19). No person except the chosen prophet and President can receive God’s will for the entire membership of the Church. The Lord said, “There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred” (D&C 132:7). The President of the Church is assisted by his counselors in the First Presidency and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve, who are also prophets, seers, and revelators. We should do those things the prophets tell us to do. President Wilford Woodruff said that a prophet will never be allowed to lead the Church astray: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff [2004], 199).

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +2

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +2

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

(+10) LDS leaders claim to have God's authority when they tell people what to do, however they claim they never said they were infallible when they want to change their minds +12

Reasons to agree

(+6) Mormons don't claim their prophets are infallible.

(+2) Mormons claim their leaders have exclusive authority to act in God's behalf.

(+2) The LDS Church has changed doctrines too much for people to worry about following it

Mormon prophets disagree. +2

Reasons to disagree

Some LDS church leaders use logic to promote their views, not just appeals to their authority.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +4

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +10

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +12

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Images That agree

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Mormons believe in the Bible

Reasons to agree and disagree

Mormon high school students study the Old Testament one year, and the New Testament the next year.
Walk into any LDS church and you will see hundreds of Bibles that are well read, and marked.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +2

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +2

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

The Bible teaches that prophets are not infallible.

Reasons to agree

Writing about the Old Testament prophet Elijah, James said that he was “a man subject to like passions as we are” (James 5:17).
Jeremiah got so mad at God that he claimed the Lord had “deceived” him and he swore he would never speak in the name of the Lord again (see Jeremiah 20:7, 9.)
Even Peter and Paul had disagreements (see Galatians 2:11-14).

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +3

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +3

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Mormons don't claim their prophets are infallible

Reasons to agree

Mormons believe in the Bible (+2), and the Bible teaches that prophets are not infallible (+3).
LDS prophets have said they are not perfect.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +2

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +5

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +7

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Oct 30, 2010

The LDS church emphasizes genealogy too much +3

Reasons to agree: +3

Life is short.

Living people need things.

If we need help from God anyways to do our family history work back to Adam, then that means the pressure is off of us to do it now.

Scriptures that agree: +1

Matt. 8: 21-23 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Scriptures that disagree: -1

Mal. 4: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 3

Scriptures that agree: 1

Scriptures that agree: -1

Total Idea Score: 3

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

The Book of Mormon is racist

Reasons to agree:

It is racist that the dark skinned people in the Book of Mormon had their skin turned white, if they are righteous.

Reasons to disagree:

Some people say the Book of Mormon is racist against the darker skinned people of the book, because some of the authors say some quotes that sound pretty bad. However the whole book says that they were the more righteous people, and that all the white people were killed off. There were many parts of the book that authors say that the Laminates were more righteous than the Nephites.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +1

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: -0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

The Book of Mormon teaches good things

Reasons to agree

The pride cycle, as taught in the book of Mormon, is important.

The danger of gangs (secrete combinations), as taught in the book of Mormon, might turn out important.

The Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus came to more than just the Israelites, which, if it is true, is neat.

Reasons to disagree

The Book of Mormon doesn't teach anything new.

The Book of Mormon, like the Old Testament, justifies killing the defenseless (Nephi Killing an unconscious Laban).

The Book of Mormon is racist(0).

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +3

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: -2

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

If Joseph Smith told big lies than the Mormon church must not be inspired

Reasons to disagree

Scholars don't believe that Paul really wrote all the books attributed to him. If lies about your church's founding mean that your church is wrong, then no Christian churches are true.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

The fact that cool doctrines didn't come from the Church until educated people joined the Mormon church leads you to believe that Joseph Smith might not have been the author of these doctrines

Reasons to disagree

Its a nice idea, but no one came forward and said, Joseph Smith's ideas about the pre-mortal existence, baptisms for the dead, the quorum of the 12 apostles, or anything else, really came from them, did they?

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Joseph Smith had relationships with women so much younger than him, that it shows that he did not value them as intellectual or spiritual beings +3

Reasons to agree: +4

Joseph was 38 when he married Helen Mar Kimball who was only 14. She continued to live with her parents, and never married lived with Joseph. When she grew up she married someone else, and never seemed to have had sex with Joseph. They were trying to just seal people to each other, but still it seems weird that Joseph would seal her to him as a wife. Why didn't he just adopt her as a daughter?

Joseph Smith was 28 when he had an affair, or a plural marriage with Fanny Alger who was 16.

Joseph Smith was 37 when he married Sarah Ann Whitney who was 17 years old.

Statements by William Law and Eliza R. Snow indicate that the marriages included sexual intimacy.[121][122] "Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this." - Joseph Smith's close confidant and LDS Church First Councilor, William Law, Interview in Salt Lake Tribune, July 31, 188. When Heber C. Kimball asked Sister Eliza R. Snow the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith, she replied, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that." - Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.

Reasons to disagree: -1

No DNA evidence exist that Joseph Smith fathered any other children than with his wife Emma. Most historians agree that Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, taught and practiced polygamy during his ministry, and married several dozen women during his lifetime, even though Smith, and the leading quorums of his church, publicly denied he taught or practiced it.[1][2][3] Additionally, after his death, several women were "sealed" to him.[4]

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

If you say that Joseph Smith was evil, then you have to say that many of the Popes were evil

Reasons to agree

Many of the Popes did bad things.

Reasons to disagree

According to the same logic you would condemn all the apostles for the greed of Judas and the cowardice of Peter

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +13

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +12

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Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

It is worse for the Mormon church if Joseph Smith was evil, than it is for the Catholic church if some of the Popes were evil

Reasons to agree

Catholics can say that they had some evil Popes, but that was just a time that the Church was struggling. They can also point at very good popes. They don't have a Pope, that some say was evil, that started the whole thing.

Reasons to disagree

It may be a little bit worse, but it is essentially saying the same thing. It is saying that sure churches may be a little bit inspired, but they are not very inspired. If you want to find a little bit of meaning from your Church, that is fine, but it is sort of Stupid to put a whole lot of faith in a Church that would make real big mistakes.
If your church made real big mistakes in the past, or its leaders weren't much better than you, why should you totally alter your life, doing what it says, when what it is telling you might be a mistake also.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +1

# of reasons to disagree: -2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: -2

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Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

There is more reason to say that Joseph Smith had bad motivation than Moses

Reasons to agree

Moses, to the best of our knowledge, never used it position as a way to increase the number of his sexual partners.

Reasons to disagree

Moses killed an Egyptian. If you applied the same methods of judging Moses, that some want you to judge Joseph Smith then he would not come out looking to good.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Saying Joseph Smith was power hungry is like saying Moses is power hungry

Reasons to agree:

Power does not always corrupt.
People can have noble motives to lead.

Reasons to disagree:

There is more reason to say that Joseph Smith had bad motivation than Moses.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Joseph Smith seemed to like power -1

Reasons to agree:

Joseph liked dressing in Military uniforms.

Joseph ran for president.

Reasons to disagree:

Saying Joseph Smith was power hungry is like saying Moses is power hungry. +2

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 2

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -2

Total Idea Score: -1

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Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Joseph smith's motivations were pure -1

Reasons to agree

Joseph worked his whole life in menial labor trying to build up the kingdom of God.

Joseph's wife stayed married to him.

Many people stayed loyal to him.

Joseph tried to build a zion-like society, and paid respect to grace, and virtue.

Joseph bought a slave his freedom.

Reasons to agree

Joseph seemed to like power. -1

Joseph tried to form a bank, perhaps he was trying to get rich.

Joseph seems to have introduced polygamy as a way to increase his sex partners.

# of reasons to agree: 5

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -1

Total Idea Score: -1

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Related arguments:

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Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

You can logically believe that Joseph was once inspired but had fallen.

Reasons to agree:

True, no one is perfect one day and totally evil the next day, but it makes sense that someone could have qualified at one time for spiritual guidance, lost it, and gone astray.

Reasons to disagree:

David fell, and Judus, but God wouldn't mess with people so much, to send a new prophet in the latter days, and let him fall.

Mormons leaders have said that God will not let them lead the church astray. But if Joseph Smith was removed because of polygamy, why wasn't Brigham Young? If Brigham Young was removed because of his view's on race, why weren't the next church leaders?

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

It is important to analyze unbiased history around Joseph Smith

Reasons to agree

All truth is important.

Historical truth is important.

Reasons to disagree

Whatever problems have emerged in his story are not really to be examined because they are of God and so the explanation for them lies in the mystery of God.

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

The treatment by LDS leaders to Black men indicates that the church is not inspired

Reasons to agree

You are told as a Mormon to brag to your non-Mormon friends that we have a living prophet who can tell us things that God wants us to know. If God really has a special relationship with the LDS prophet, there are no good explanations of why God would wait until 1978 for him to tell our Church to start giving Blacks the priesthood.

Reasons to disagree

Sure, the LDS people and leaders were racist, but when your talking about theology, it shouldn't matter when a church changed, just that it ever was Bad. It shouldn't matter that it was longer ago that Baptist preachers were slave holders. If the baptist doctrine was so flimsy that it can change from once supporting slavery, then there is not much of a doctrine that is worth while. If Catholic Popes were really bad a long time ago, it doesn't make it any worse for Mormons, that their prophet was bad more recently... You can say that the Mormon culture sucked that it was racest for so long, but if you are going to choose a church for its doctrine, then there is no church that was always good racialy, and you shouldn't be embarrassed to choose the LDS church now. Of course you should be a little humble when trying to brag how supper-duper-smart-and-in-touch with God that your prophet is, but you can still believe he is sort-of inspired.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Scriptures that agree

Scriptures that disagree

Interest of those who agree

Interest of those who disagree

Common Interest

Opposing Interest

Videos That agree

Videos That disagree

Images That agree

Images That disagree

Website that agree

Websites that disagree

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

Joseph Smith lied about the Book of Abraham +2

Reasons to agree: 7

One of the worst things is people who are confident, but are wrong. Joseph smith confidently proclaimed the translation of the facsimiles in the Pearl of Great Price. He was completely wrong. Not even close. When someone gets things this wrong, you must assume, what other things did he just make up?

Joseph lied when he described his process as a translation.

Joseph Smith described his work as translating from the papyrus that he found. Modern scholars have proven that Smiths translation does not match the original papyrus. Perhaps Joseph Smith was really inspired. Perhaps the information is really from God. However, you should not lie to exaggerate or misrepresent what really happened. It is wrong to lie. It is wrong to say you translated, if you are just getting thoughts and ideas that are unrelated to what is on a papyrus. Henry B. Eyring said that God did not need something written down on papyrus in order to get his message to us. Of course he is right, but Joseph shouldn't have acted like he was translating. In order to still believe the Church is true, you have to believe that Joseph was sort of a charlatan, but that God used a boastful, exaggerating, man to bring forth the truth. This is probably not the case.

In the Times and Seasons Joseph presented, and other Church leaders continued to present drawings with interpretations that have been proven to be wrong.

Modern scholars, including Mormon scholars, date the papyri to a few hundred not thousands of years before Christ, but Joseph Smith said that Abraham wrote on the scrolls with his own hand.

It seems that Joseph invented hieroglyphic characters to fill in for missing characters lost by the lacuna

According to Smith, the book was "a translation of some ancient records ... purporting to be the writings of Abraham, while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus". However they are actually commonly used funderal texts, and were not written by the Prophet Abraham.

Reasons to disagree: 3

John Laurence Gee (born 1964) is an American Latter-day Saint and Egyptologist at Brigham Young University (BYU) who is known for his writings in support of the Book of Abraham.

The phrase "by his own hand" can simply mean that Abraham is the author of the book. Similarly, we could hold a modern printed Bible in our hands, point to 1 Corinthians, and say, "This was written by the Apostle Paul."

Joseph was translating the writings of Abraham, so it is quite possible that he believed that the actual scroll in his possession was written by Abraham himself. There is no evidence, however, that this belief was based on revelation.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +7

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +4

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Website that agree

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham

http://www.bookofabraham.info/

http://ldsdebate.blogspot.com/search/label/Book%20of%20Abraham

Websites that disagree

Images That agree

Figure	Joseph Smith Explanation^[40]	Explanation by non-Mormon and Mormon Egyptologists (quotes are from Deveria 1860)^[25]^[41]^[42]^[43]^[44]^[45]
1	The Angel of the Lord.	"The soul of Osiris (which should have a human head)"
2	Abraham fastened upon an altar.	"Osiris coming to life on his couch, which is in the shape of a lion"
3	The idolatrous priest of Elkenah attempting to offer up Abraham as a sacrifice.	"The God Anubis (who should have a jackal's head) effecting the resurrection of Osiris"
4	The altar for sacrifice by the idolatrous priests, standing before the gods of Elkenah [sic], Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and Pharaoh.	"The funeral bed of Osiris"
5	The idolatrous god of Elkenah.	Canopic jar portraying Qebehsenuf with a falcon's head - one of thefour sons of Horus
6	The idolatrous god of Libnah.	Canopic jar portraying Duamutef with a jackal's head - one of the four sons of Horus
7	The idolatrous god of Mahmackrah.	Canopic jar portraying Hapy with an ape's head - one of the four sons of Horus
8	The idolatrous god of Korash.	Canopic jar portraying Imsety with a human head - one of the four sons of Horus
9	The idolatrous god of Pharaoh.	"The sacred crocodile, symbolic of the god Sedet"
10	Abraham in Egypt.	"Altar laden with offerings"
11	Designed to represent the pillars of heaven, as understood by the Egyptians.	"An ornament peculiar to Egyptian art"
12	Raukeeyang, signifying expanse, or the firmament over our heads; but in this case, in relation to this subject, the Egyptians meant it to signify Shaumau, to be high, or the heavens, answering to the Hebrew word, Shaumahyeem.	"Customary representation of ground in Egyptian paintings (The word Shauman is not Egyptian, and the Hebrew word is badly copied)"

Welcome to the Future of Collaborative Decision-Making This platform isn’t just a space to share ideas—it’s a step toward a better Colorado. Here, we discuss, refine, and prioritize what truly matters for our state’s future. Your voice matters, and together, we can build a comprehensive and actionable plan that reflects our collective wisdom. But this isn’t just about Colorado. It’s part of a larger movement to revolutionize how debates and decisions happen. Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Imagine a world where thousands—even millions—contribute meaningfully to critical decisions. By leveraging structured organization, evidence-backed evaluation, and transparent processes, we can transform debates into tools for progress. Join the conversation. Leave your thoughts, share your arguments, and let’s shape a smarter, brighter future together.

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