Churches should be honest about their past

Reasons to agree

1. It is hypocritical for churches to lie about their past


2. It is hypocritical for churches to cover up their past. 


3. You interfere with someone's agency when you convince them to "choose" something based on incomplete or inaccurate information.


4. A church should not feel good about converting people, if they don't tell them the Truth about their church. 


5. According to LDS doctrine, an uninformed choice is not a valid exercise of agency for which someone is held accountable (and conversely, for which they can be rewarded). 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 5

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 3

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Mormons don't really believe their family will be together forever

Reasons to agree

1. The family is separated for eternity as each is busily involved being the God of their respective worlds. (Some Latter-day Saints may argue they will be able to “visit” each other, but occasional visits hardly constitute being “together forever.”) The cruel reality is that there is no way within the Mormon system for a family to be together forever, not in the sense of being a family unit as it is so commonly portrayed. Because the LDS Church has made God in the image of man, the logical end result within the LDS system is that even in the best-case scenario LDS eternal families will suffer from the same sad realities as earthly families: children grow up, marry, move away, have their own children who grow up, marry and move away, literally worlds apart. In the other scenarios the separation is absolute and eternal as parents and children are relegated to different kingdoms whose borders are forever sealed.

Reasons to disagree

1.  What Mormons believe is that they will be together in the same realm. All the details are not explained, but supposedly it will be pretty good. 

Scriptures that agree

1. 
   
   

Scriptures that disagree

1.  

Interest of those who agree

1. Opposing Mormonism

Interest of those who disagree

1.  Promoting Mormonism

Common Interest

1. Search for truth

Opposing Interest

1.  

Websites that agree:

1. http://irr.org/mit/Mormon_forever_families.html

Websites that disagree:

1. 
   
   

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Template

Reasons

Reasons to agree: +

1. 
   

Reasons to disagree: -

1. 
   

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0/2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0/2

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

========================================================

Scriptures

Scriptures that agree: +

1. 
   

Scriptures that disagree: -

1. 
   

========================================================

Images

Images That agree: +

1. 
   

Images That disagree: -

1.  

========================================================

Interest

Most Valid Interest of those who agree: +

1. 
   

Most Valid Interest of those who disagree: -

1.  

Most Important Common Interest:

1. 
   

Most Important Opposing Interest:

1. 
   

========================================================

Videos That agree: +

1. 
   

Videos That disagree: -

1.  

========================================================

Webpages



Website that agree: +

1. 
   

Websites that disagree: -

1. 
   

========================================================

Podcast



Podcast that agree: +

1. 
   

Podcast that disagree: -

1. 
   

========================================================

Unbiased Experts



Unbiased Experts who agree: +

1. 
   

Unbiased Experts who disagree: -

1. 
   

========================================================

Best Books

Books that Agree: +

1. 
   

Books that Agree: -

Related arguments:

Homosexuality is a choice

(+1) If we need help from God anyways to do our family history work back to Adam, then that means the pressure is off of us to do it now

Reasons to agree

1. There is no way we can get all the way back to Adam anyways... and so we are told that some work will have to happen during the millenium... but if we have access to angles and help during the millenium, and people who have died know who their parents and children are, then it should only take about a week or so to get it all done, with all the billions of people that are alive now...

Reasons to disagree

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

LDS church leaders have been more chauvinistic than most other religious leaders of their time (+6)

Reasons to agree: +8

1. LDS church leaders have been more chauvinistic than most other religious leaders of their time. +6


2. Elder Erastus Snow said, in the Journal of Discourses, v.5 p.291 said: "Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? ... No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant."


3. The LDS church has teachings that no other church has, that a wife is supposed obey her husband while her husband obeys the lord. 


4. Polygamy is chauvinistic, no other church has, in the modern western world, allowed polygamy. 


5. Until September 29th, 1978 women were not authorized to give prayers in sacrament meetings. As documented on the Church's website, under "Major Events in President Kimball’s Administration". 


6. It is Chauvinistic to tell women that their place is in the home (+1). The LDS church tells its female members, more than other churches, that their place is in the home as mothers. 


7. Some churches give Women the priesthood. This doesn't prove that the LDS more chovenist than most, but it does prove that the Church (or God if the LDS church is true) is more chauvinistic than those churches that do allow women priests (see Ordination of women on Wikipedia)


8. The LDS church allowed polygamy for Men but not for women. This is pretty chauvinistic, and devalues women. (See Mormonism and Polygamy)


9. It doesn't do any good to say other churches were bad to. The LDS church is an all or nothing sort of thing. The leaders of the LDS church claim to speak to Jesus on a regular basis. They can't claim this, and also go around doing the same stupid things other churches do. 

Reasons to disagree: -3

1. Utah was the 2nd state to allow women to vote, which indicates that, even though some leaders said some stupid things, as a whole the LDS movement is less chauvinistic than average. (Women's suffrage: Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, and Idaho)


2. Mormons believe in a "Mother in Heaven" as a doctrine forces them to have respect for women. (Heavenly Mother, Mormonism).


3. We took very good records of our time, and we are one organization that existed a long time ago. There was no one Methodist church in the same way, a hundred years ago, with similar leaders. But if you would have written down the things they said, perhaps they would have been just as bad. 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 8

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 6

LDS teaching and doctrine are sexist and chauvinistic

Some LDS church leaders use logic to promote their views, not just appeals to their authority

Reasons to agree

1. 
   
   

Reasons to disagree

1. 
   
   

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 13

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Many of the Popes did bad things (+12)

Reasons to agree

1. Pope Alexander VI (1492 - 1503) committed incest with his two sisters and daughter. On October 31, 1501 he conducted the worst ever sex orgy in the Vatican.



2. Pope Paul III (1534 - 1549) as a cardinal fathered three sons and a daughter and sought advice from astrologers.


3. Pope Sergius III (904 - 911) obtained his office by murder


4. Pope Sergius III (904 - 911) fathered several illegitimate children by Marozia


5. Pope John XII (955 - 964) is described in the Catholic encyclopedia as a coarse, immoral man. The Catholic collection of the lives of the Popes, the "Liber Pontificalis" said: "He spent his entire life in adultery." Catholic bishop Luitprand states that "he had no respect for single girls, married woman or widows - they were sure to be defiled by him."


6. Pope Benedict IX (1033 - 1045) committed murders and adulteries in broad daylight, robbed pilgrims, and was regarded as a hideous criminal. The people drove him out of Rome: The Catholic encyclopedia says, "He was a disgrace to the chair of Peter."


7. Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216) promoted the Inquisition


8. Pope Pius II (1458 - 1464) fathered many illegitimate children and taught others to do likewise before he repented.


9. Pope Innocent VII or VIII fathered 16 illegitimate children by various women.


10. Pope Leo X (1513 - 1521) the Catholic encyclopedia says "was possessed by an insatiable love of pleasure, revelry and carousing. Luther visited Rome and said: "No one can imagine what sins and infamous actions are committed in Rome." A saying was: "If there is a hell, Rome is built over it."


11. Pope Stephen VI (896 - 897) brought the dead body of former Pope Formosus (891 - 897) to trial, hacked off his decaying finger and had him dragged through the streets of Rome and thrown into the Tiber river.


12. Pope Eugene IV (1431 - 1447) condemned Joan of Arc to be burned alive as a witch, but Pope Benedict IV (1919) declared her a saint.


13. Jesus said in Matthew 7:18, 20 - "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit ... by their fruits ye shall know them."

Reasons to disagree

1. The majority of the Popes were good men.


2. Their were a lot of Popes, and so of course some of them were bad.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 13

# of reasons to disagree: -2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -12

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

This photos is a good way of criticizing the LDS church

Reasons to agree

1. If everybody thinks the same way, someone isn't thinking.

Reasons to disagree

1. The typical debate forum is not set up in such a format that it makes examining truth claims to be a very productive experience.


2. When you get to forums in which real debate is taking place, people get caught up in all the tedious personal attacks, accusations, oversimplification, and false logic that is typical of modern debate. It is a waste of time just hanging out with people that you already agree with, but it can often be a greater waste of time to try to participate in a meaningful debate in the typical online forum.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

The ClearStream2™ from Antennas Direct is a good deal

Reasons to agree:	Reasons to disagree:
For $150 you can get local channels. The cable company will charge you $5 a month for this.  A 1 year pay back is good, and you don't have to pay for all the other stuff. [Submit a reason]    (Reason score: )	[Submit a reason]    (Reason score: )
R2A (+): __           R2AA (+): __          R2DA(-): __	R2A (+): __           R2AA (+): __          R2DA(-): __

Most probable interest of those who agree:	Most probable interest of those who disagree:

Books that can be said to agree:	Books that can be said to disagree

People that agree:	People that disagree:

Webpages that agree:	Webpages that disagree:

Values that agree:	Values that disagree:

It is nerdy to analyze issues with this much detail.

The current price to buy stock in this belief is $0.95 per share

The Idea Stock Exchange score for this idea is: +3-1=2

The percent that agree is: 92%

Some interest are more valid than others

Reasons to agree

1. The desire for financial security is valid, as long as it is not applied in your life in such a way to cause you to disrespect other people's rights.
2. In a just society those who act on valid interest do not commit crimes. The more severe the punishment the less valid the interest. In any society the interest of criminals are not considered valid, when actions resulting from their interest, result in illegal behavior. In these situations, they may be guided by valid interest, however the application of their interest, by perhaps overriding other's interest, results in criminal activity.
3. For the purposes of this website, viewing things on a whole, the desire for great wealth, would be less valid than mere financial security, because the desire for great wealth, more more likely be used as a motivation to break more laws, than mere financial security.
4. All of this is relative, and semantic, but that does not mean we should throw our hands up in the air, and say all motivations are equal. The desire to rape and kill is not seen as a valid in any society, and if we are going to ever make progress in determining the validity of any position, we have to make progress in determining the reasons, and boundaries that start to make valid interest less valid.

We should only participate in discussion groups with members with diverse opinions.

Reasons to agree

1. If everybody thinks the same way, someone isn't thinking.

Reasons to disagree

1. The typical debate forum is not set up in such a format that it makes examining truth claims to be a very productive experience.
2. When you get to forums in which real debate is taking place, people get caught up in all the tedious personal attacks, accusations, oversimplification, and false logic that is typical of modern debate. It is a waste of time just hanging out with people that you already agree with, but it can often be a greater waste of time to try to participate in a meaningful debate in the typical online forum.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

We should focus on interest not positions

Reasons to agree

1. Focusing on interest allows both sides to get what what they really want.

Database of ideas

We should tag every belief with a code. Then we tag other beliefs as reasons to agree or disagree.



Perhaps each belief would get a numeric code in a database, such as 101. Reasons to agree would be number sequentially, like 101a1, 101a2, etc. Reasons to disagree would be labeled 101d1, 101d2, etc.



Reasons to agree with 101a1 would be labeled 101a1a1, and so on.



This way the database could, with some very simple code count the number of reasons to agree or disagree with each idea.



I am looking for help developing an SQL and PHP database. It would create a post for each conclusion, and post reasons to agree and disagree in separate columns.



Here is a Google Code project I created for this:



http://code.google.com/p/ideastockexchange/



Check it out for a better explanation.

No concept man forms is valid unless he integrates it without contradiction into the sum of his knowledge

Reasons to agree

1. "A concept" is a belief, or conclusion. The "sum of [one's] knowledge" is all the information, statistics, facts, and arguments that we have rolling around in our head. Valid conclusions take into account real data. Invalid conclusions ignore important data. If we want to believe things that are valid we need to take in accurate data, and ensure that our conclusions don't contradict each other.

There is a Lehigh County, Pennsylvania which is suspiciously close to the name Lehi in the Book of Mormon

Reasons to agree

1. 
   

Reasons to disagree

1. There were thousands of towns and cities in America at the time of Joseph Smith. Because some of them have similar names to names in the Book of Mormon doesn't prove much. You would have to do a pretty sophisticated analysis with multiple places in order for it to prove very much statistically.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

The names in the Book of Mormon are suspiciously close to the names of Towns around where Joseph Smith grew up

Reasons to agree

1. There is a Lehigh County, Pennsylvania which is suspiciously close to the name Lehi in the Book of Mormon (-1).

Reasons to disagree

1. In order to determine this you would have to sit down with a list of Book of Mormon names, and an accurate list of names around Joseph Smith in his time. Some of the list on Anti-Mormon websites have names of cities that were not even settled yet in Book of Mormon times. So you would have to establish that a neutral party is examining the names, and then you would have to determine the probability that the names in the Book of Mormon were not created from towns surrounding Joseph Smith. Even if you did this, you would only generate a probability that Joseph Smith would have generated those names from actual ancient Nephite Laminite names, and it wouldn't really prove very much, but would have to be taken into consideration with other probabilities that Joseph Smith was inspired...

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -1

Total Idea Score: -1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

LDS Church members have inaccurate understandings of their history.

Joseph said he was visited by an angel in his room, but he couldn't have, because he shared the room with his brothers, and they would have seeing it. -2

Reasons to agree: +1

1. Joseph intentionally misled people about his "visit" by the angel Moroni.

Reasons to disagree: -3

1. If you believe Joseph had a supernatural experience, he could have had a real vision from God, but it could have been while he slept.


2. God has to modify you in order to be able to see spiritual things. LDS people people call this being translated. We cannot, under normal circumstances, perceive spiritual matter or things with normal vision. (D&C 131:7-8) Joseph had to be blessed to hear and see a divine messenger. Others were not so blessed, and so would hear and see nothing. If God can send an angel he can keep the audience to that which he wishes.


3. You don't have to assume that God actively dulled his family member's senses in order to have an Angel speak to Joseph, only that Joseph's senses were enriched.

Reasons to agree: +1

Reasons to disagree: -3

Score: -2

Joseph Smith lied about an Angel visiting him -2

Reasons to agree: +1

1. Joseph said he was visited by an angel in his room, but he couldn't have, because he shared the room with his brothers, and they would have seeing it. -3

Reasons to disagree

1. 
   

Reasons to agree: +1

Reasons to disagree: -0

Reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -3

Reasons to agree: +1 -3 = -2

Some critics of the LDS church will not consider the possibility that the LDS church may be true +2

Reasons to agree

1. It never crossed their minds.


2. It seems so uncool

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 2

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0

Total Idea Score: 2

"Some things that are true are not very useful." Elder Boyd K. Packer

Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).

The statement is this: "There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful..."

http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/21.3Packer.pdf

Reasons to agree (with packer)

1. 
   

Reasons to disagree (with packer)

1. Joseph Smith taught the following in May 1843, later recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 131:6: “It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.” So why is Packer trying to keep some truths from us?
2. We should be allowed to determine for ourselves what is "useful".

LDS Church leader Elder Boyd K. Packer did not show enough respect for the truth when used the fact that, "If not properly written or properly taught [LDS History] may be a faith destroyer" as a reason to hide uncomfortable facts.

Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).



Reasons to agree: +2

1. "Properly taught" in this sense can mean nothing else but to hide the negative, and exaggerate the positive.


2. Gordon B. Hinckley disagreed and said: "Well, we have nothing to hide. Our history is an open book. They may find what they are looking for, but the fact is the history of the church is clear and open and leads to faith and strength and virtues." ~ Dec. 25, 2005 interview with The Associated Press

"There is no such thing as an accurate, objective history of the LDS Church without consideration of the spiritual powers that attend this work" BKP

Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).

Reasons to agree

1. 
   

Reasons to disagree

1. Any church could say this, but if they all set logic aside, their is no way to advocate one above the other. People will be forever trapped within a certain faith tradition, without saying that one is better than another in a logical, informed sort of way. You just have fru-fru- and la-de-da to back you up, and everyone just ignores anything the other guys say, because they aren't looking at the world through the correct contact lenses.
2. If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church, you would see more blessings in the lives of its members.
3. If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church its leaders would have said fewer stupid things.
4. If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church its leaders would have made fewer mistakes.
5. The spiritual powers of the church, are promised to bring practical results, and so if the church has spiritual powers, they should be measurable in improved lifestyle. The church says it is a very practical church. Their is no separation of spiritual and temporal commandments. Work, life, and death, and everything in between are spiritual. We accept truth from any source. Life processes themselves teach us spiritual lessons. The Gospel is supposed to help you live a better happier life. That the special gospel that we teach is especially good a creating a zion-like society. We tell our members that we have prophets to lead us, and help us avoid the problems that the rest of the world struggles with, however this sets the church up to be easily measured by sociologist, and it turns out that we don't have lower divorce, suicide, child abuse, and Utah has twice the national average of per-capita antidepressant use.
6. We need real, tangible ways of measuring the effect of religion in people's lives. Saying that you have to measure a church by the spirit, means that you measure it from person experience, and anecdotal experience is not as trustworthy statistical studies.

It is hard to know for sure when the spirit has told you something is real, and so you should be able to back up your decision with logic

Reasons to agree

1. If everyone says they are doing what God tells them to, and that we don't have to have logic, then each religion could have absolute moral authority, while all advocating the opposite conclusions.

Reasons to disagree

1. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14).

If the spirit tells you the Church is true, then you are going against the spirit when you investigate negative aspects of the Church.

Reasons to agree

1. Some things that are true are not very useful.

Reasons to disagree

1. It is hard to know for sure when the spirit has told you something is real, and so you should be able to back up your decision with logic.

(-1) Some things that are true are not very useful

Reasons to agree

1. We should judge the world, according to Gospel principles, not the church according to worldly principles

Reasons to disagree

1. The end does not justify the means.


2. Just because truth is critical of your church doesn't mean truth should be altered. 

We should examine LDS history, unafraid of the truth.

Reasons to agree

1. Gordon B. Hinckley: "Well, we have nothing to hide. Our history is an open book. They may find what they are looking for, but the fact is the history of the church is clear and open and leads to faith and strength and virtues." ~ Dec. 25, 2005 interview with The Associated Press
2. God is a God of Truth
3. God doesn't need us to lie for him

Reasons to agree

1. Some things that are true are not very useful.
2. If the spirit tells you the Church is true, then you are going against the spirit when you investigate negative aspects of the Church.

The LDS focus on white shirts is cult like

Reasons to agree

1. Cults focus on controlling every aspects of their member's lives.
2. I would say 90% of people who grew up in the 80s were told they couldn't pass the sacrament if they weren't wearing a white shirt.
3. You get weird looks at church if you don't wear a white shirt.

Reasons to disagree

1. Catholic priest all wear the same uniform. In the Mormon church ever male member is a holder of the priesthood.
2. The white shirt and tie is sort of arbitrary, but it is seen throughout the world as a more formal attire, and the church leaders don't want to be informal.

Explanations of symbolism associated with white shirt don't make any sense

Reasons to agree

1. If a white shirt is a symbol of righteousness, aren't black pants, shoes, belts, and suits a symbol of evil?

Reasons to disagree

1. Just because you can take the white shirt idea to weird extremes doesn't mean it is bad.


2. Lots of good things can be twisted to weird extremes. 

With the LDS church's racial problems, they should avoid promoting white shirts as a sign of purity

Reasons to disagree

1. Skin is different than clothes. People understand that every culture inderstands that white clothes can be a symbol of cleanliness.
2. "White people" aren't white, they are a sort of pinkish, tan-ish, off white...
3. White people don't want to be too white.
4. No one said that albino is pure.