The Church plays mind games with people by telling them to bear their testimony of things that they don't believe, as a way to find out that what they said is true +1

Reasons to agree

1. "Find Your Testimony by Bearing ¶ It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would that not be dishonest?” ¶ Oh, if I could teach you this one principle: a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it! ¶ Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man is,” as the scripture says, indeed “the candle of the Lord” (Proverbs 20:27).  ¶ It is one thing to receive a witness from what you have read or what another has said; and that is a necessary beginning. It is quite another to have the Spirit confirm to you in your bosom that what you have testified is true. Can you not see that it will be supplied as you share it? As you give that which you have, there is a replacement, with increase! ¶ To speak out is the test of your faith. ¶ Bear testimony of the things that you hope are true, as an act of faith. It is something of an experiment, like the experiment that the prophet Alma proposed to his followers. We begin with faith—not with a perfect knowledge of things. That sermon in the 32nd chapter of Alma is one of the greatest messages in holy writ, for it is addressed to the beginner, to the humble seeker. And it holds a key to a witness of the truth. ¶ The Spirit and testimony of Christ will come to you for the most part when, and remain with you only if, you share it. In that process is the very essence of the gospel. ¶ Is not this a perfect demonstration of Christianity? You cannot find it, nor keep it, nor enlarge it unless and until you are willing to share it. It is by giving it away freely that it becomes yours. (Boyd K. Packer, "The Candle of the Lord," from talk given at seminar for new mission presidents, 25 June 1982, published in "Ensign," January 1983, at: http://lds.org/ensign/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng)

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# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

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The LDS Church is still doing bad things that God's church wouldn't do. (+7)

Reasons to agree: +7

1. The LDS church is wrong to use uses logical fallacies to keep people in the Church. 


2. The LDS Church plays mind games with people by telling them to bear their testimony of things that they don't believe, as a way to find out that what they said is true. (+1) 


3. The LDS Church supports an unhealthy black and white view of the world. (+3)


4. Fast and Testimony Meetings are bad. +11


5. The LDS Church is too Chauvinistic. 


6. God would not want a church to convert people with half-truths or omissions. +8


7. The LDS church emphasizes genealogy too much. +3


8. It is Chauvinistic to tell women that their place is in the home as Moms.+1


9. The LDS focus on white shirts is cult like. +1


10. 
    When a religious belief causes you to treat a loved one with anger or coldness its not a church to anymore, its a cult. -3
    
    


11. It is wrong of the LDS church to promote bad logic.


12. The LDS Church supports a black and white view that everyone who is not with the Church is an enemy of Good. 


13. The LDS Church makes gay people feel like 2nd class citizens. 


14. The Church makes every Member lie every Sunday when they "witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him". Members lie because they do not "always remember Jesus". 


15. The LDS Church is harmful to good Young Men who don't feel like telling other people what to believe. I went on a mission, which was fine for me, but if my son doesn't go on one I know he will be made to feel like a second class citizen in the Church. 


16. It is wrong for the LDS church to be taking large sums of money 

Reasons to disagree: -4

1. All Churches do bad some bad things. 


2. One Church can't be everything to all people. 


3. A better criticism would be to try to make the argument that the LDS Church does more bad than good.


4. LDS missions force young men to care about other people, pray about them, and try to get in their shoes. 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 16

# of reasons to disagree: -4

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 22

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 32

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Religion keeps society from falling apart

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Score:

# of reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

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It is wrong for LDS church leaders to tell their members to find their testimony in the bearing of it +3

Reason To Agree 

1. "The oblique paradox of propaganda is that the lie in the throat becomes, by repetition, the truth in the heart". ~ John Grierson


2. It is wrong to lie. 


3. The True to the Faith Pamphlet given to every young person in the Church, says the following: "Your testimony will increase as you share it. Do not wait for your testimony to be fully developed before you share it. Part of a testimony’s development comes when it is shared. In fact, you will find that when you give what you have of your testimony, it will be returned to you—with increase." THIS IS TELLING KIDS TO LIE. TO SAY THEY KNOW THE CHURCH IS TRUE, BEFORE THEY REALLY DO!

Reasons to disagree

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Score:

# of reasons to agree: 3

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: +3

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Fast and Testimony Meetings are bad +7

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It is confusing to know what is official LDS doctrine

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Score:

# of reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

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LDS Church leaders have changed many core doctrines

Reasons to agree: +

1. Heber C. Kimball, an LDS prophet, said, “Some quietly listen to those who speak against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have half-a-dozen devils with them all the time. You might as well deny ‘Mormonism,’ and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose the doctrine, and the whole of them will be damned.” Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203:


2. LDS prophets have taught that God required Polygam, then condemned polygamy.


3. LDS prophets have taught that God was Adam, and that he was not Adam. 


4. LDS prophets have were very late to support civil rights.

Reasons to disagree: -





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Score:

# of reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0

Total Idea Score: 0

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Related arguments:

LDS Church leaders have often prophesied things that did not happen. +2

RTA

1. "The Church and kingdom to which we belong will become the kingdom of our God and his Christ, and brother Brigham Young will become President of the United States. [Voices responded, “Amen.”] And I tell you he will be something more; but we do not now want to give him the name: but he is called and ordained to a far greater station than that, and he is foreordained to take that station, and he has got it; and I am Vice-President, and brother Wells is the Secretary of the Interior—yes, and of all the armies in the flesh. You don't believe that; but I can tell you it is one of the smallest things that I can think of. You may think that I am joking; but I am perfectly willing that brother Long should write every word of it; for I can see it, just as naturally as I see the earth and the productions thereof."  (Elder Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 5-213)


2. "In the days of Joseph it was considered a great privilege to be permitted to speak to a member of Congress, but twenty-six years will not pass away before the Elders of this Church will be as much thought of as the kings on their thrones." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 4, page 41)


3. "...it was the will of God that those who went Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 2:182)".

Reasons to disagree

1.  Gordon B. Hinkley told the story of Joseph in Egypts's 7 years of feast and 7 years of famine, before the global financial bubble burst. 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 3

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 2

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The LDS Church has changed doctrines too much for people to worry about following it (+4)

Reasons to agree: 5

1. LDS Church leaders have changed many core doctrines.


2. The LDS Church used to teach that polygamy was a requirement in order to get into heaven.


3. Brigham Young used to teach in General Conference that God was the same person as Adam.


4. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! About whom holy men have written and spoken-He is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, V. 1. p.51)


5. Heber C. Kimball said: "You might as well deny 'Mormonism,'... as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose the doctrine, and the whole of them will be damned."

Reasons to disagree: 1

1.  Other Churchs also changed their doctrine. Mormons don't claim their leaders are perfect, they just say that the correct organization has been restored, and that it will keep getting better. 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 5

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 4

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The LDS church does not have a good system for picking its leaders

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1.  It is cool to have other people choose you... it proves that its not just an ego trip, that you aspired to it

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Score:

# of reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

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