"Some things that are true are not very useful." Elder Boyd K. Packer

Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).

The statement is this: "There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful..."

http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/21.3Packer.pdf

Reasons to agree (with packer)

1. 
   

Reasons to disagree (with packer)

1. Joseph Smith taught the following in May 1843, later recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 131:6: “It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.” So why is Packer trying to keep some truths from us?
2. We should be allowed to determine for ourselves what is "useful".

LDS Church leader Elder Boyd K. Packer did not show enough respect for the truth when used the fact that, "If not properly written or properly taught [LDS History] may be a faith destroyer" as a reason to hide uncomfortable facts.

Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).



Reasons to agree: +2

1. "Properly taught" in this sense can mean nothing else but to hide the negative, and exaggerate the positive.


2. Gordon B. Hinckley disagreed and said: "Well, we have nothing to hide. Our history is an open book. They may find what they are looking for, but the fact is the history of the church is clear and open and leads to faith and strength and virtues." ~ Dec. 25, 2005 interview with The Associated Press

"There is no such thing as an accurate, objective history of the LDS Church without consideration of the spiritual powers that attend this work" BKP

Background: I am trying to dissect the following article: “The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect” by Elder Boyd K. Packer, BYU Studies 21, no. 3 (1981).

Reasons to agree

1. 
   

Reasons to disagree

1. Any church could say this, but if they all set logic aside, their is no way to advocate one above the other. People will be forever trapped within a certain faith tradition, without saying that one is better than another in a logical, informed sort of way. You just have fru-fru- and la-de-da to back you up, and everyone just ignores anything the other guys say, because they aren't looking at the world through the correct contact lenses.
2. If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church, you would see more blessings in the lives of its members.
3. If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church its leaders would have said fewer stupid things.
4. If spiritual powers attended the work of the LDS church its leaders would have made fewer mistakes.
5. The spiritual powers of the church, are promised to bring practical results, and so if the church has spiritual powers, they should be measurable in improved lifestyle. The church says it is a very practical church. Their is no separation of spiritual and temporal commandments. Work, life, and death, and everything in between are spiritual. We accept truth from any source. Life processes themselves teach us spiritual lessons. The Gospel is supposed to help you live a better happier life. That the special gospel that we teach is especially good a creating a zion-like society. We tell our members that we have prophets to lead us, and help us avoid the problems that the rest of the world struggles with, however this sets the church up to be easily measured by sociologist, and it turns out that we don't have lower divorce, suicide, child abuse, and Utah has twice the national average of per-capita antidepressant use.
6. We need real, tangible ways of measuring the effect of religion in people's lives. Saying that you have to measure a church by the spirit, means that you measure it from person experience, and anecdotal experience is not as trustworthy statistical studies.

It is hard to know for sure when the spirit has told you something is real, and so you should be able to back up your decision with logic

Reasons to agree

1. If everyone says they are doing what God tells them to, and that we don't have to have logic, then each religion could have absolute moral authority, while all advocating the opposite conclusions.

Reasons to disagree

1. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14).

If the spirit tells you the Church is true, then you are going against the spirit when you investigate negative aspects of the Church.

Reasons to agree

1. Some things that are true are not very useful.

Reasons to disagree

1. It is hard to know for sure when the spirit has told you something is real, and so you should be able to back up your decision with logic.

(-1) Some things that are true are not very useful

Reasons to agree

1. We should judge the world, according to Gospel principles, not the church according to worldly principles

Reasons to disagree

1. The end does not justify the means.


2. Just because truth is critical of your church doesn't mean truth should be altered. 

We should examine LDS history, unafraid of the truth.

Reasons to agree

1. Gordon B. Hinckley: "Well, we have nothing to hide. Our history is an open book. They may find what they are looking for, but the fact is the history of the church is clear and open and leads to faith and strength and virtues." ~ Dec. 25, 2005 interview with The Associated Press
2. God is a God of Truth
3. God doesn't need us to lie for him

Reasons to agree

1. Some things that are true are not very useful.
2. If the spirit tells you the Church is true, then you are going against the spirit when you investigate negative aspects of the Church.

The LDS focus on white shirts is cult like

Reasons to agree

1. Cults focus on controlling every aspects of their member's lives.
2. I would say 90% of people who grew up in the 80s were told they couldn't pass the sacrament if they weren't wearing a white shirt.
3. You get weird looks at church if you don't wear a white shirt.

Reasons to disagree

1. Catholic priest all wear the same uniform. In the Mormon church ever male member is a holder of the priesthood.
2. The white shirt and tie is sort of arbitrary, but it is seen throughout the world as a more formal attire, and the church leaders don't want to be informal.

Explanations of symbolism associated with white shirt don't make any sense

Reasons to agree

1. If a white shirt is a symbol of righteousness, aren't black pants, shoes, belts, and suits a symbol of evil?

Reasons to disagree

1. Just because you can take the white shirt idea to weird extremes doesn't mean it is bad.


2. Lots of good things can be twisted to weird extremes. 

With the LDS church's racial problems, they should avoid promoting white shirts as a sign of purity

Reasons to disagree

1. Skin is different than clothes. People understand that every culture inderstands that white clothes can be a symbol of cleanliness.
2. "White people" aren't white, they are a sort of pinkish, tan-ish, off white...
3. White people don't want to be too white.
4. No one said that albino is pure.

Mormons claim their leaders have exclusive authority to act in God's behalf.

Reasons to agree

1. This is one of the most fundamental of all LDS teachers.
2. Gospel principles says: "Many people live in darkness, unsure of God’s will. They believe that the heavens are closed and that people must face the world’s perils alone. How fortunate are the Latter-day Saints! We know that God communicates to the Church through His prophet. With grateful hearts, Saints the world over sing the hymn, “We thank thee, O God, for a prophet to guide us in these latter days” (Hymns, no. 19). "When a prophet speaks for God, it is as if God were speaking (see D&C 1:38) Gospel principles says; We have a prophet living on the earth today. This prophet is the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He has the right to revelation for the entire Church. He holds “the keys of the kingdom,” meaning that he has the authority to direct the entire Church and kingdom of God on earth, including the administration of priesthood ordinances (see Matthew 16:19). No person except the chosen prophet and President can receive God’s will for the entire membership of the Church. The Lord said, “There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred” (D&C 132:7). The President of the Church is assisted by his counselors in the First Presidency and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve, who are also prophets, seers, and revelators. We should do those things the prophets tell us to do. President Wilford Woodruff said that a prophet will never be allowed to lead the Church astray: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff [2004], 199).

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +2

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +2

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

(+10) LDS leaders claim to have God's authority when they tell people what to do, however they claim they never said they were infallible when they want to change their minds +12

Reasons to agree

1. (+6) Mormons don't claim their prophets are infallible.


2. (+2) Mormons claim their leaders have exclusive authority to act in God's behalf.


3. (+2) The LDS Church has changed doctrines too much for people to worry about following it


4. Mormon prophets disagree. +2

Reasons to disagree

1. Some LDS church leaders use logic to promote their views, not just appeals to their authority. 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +4

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +10

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +12

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Images That agree

1.  

Mormons believe in the Bible

Reasons to agree and disagree

1. Mormon high school students study the Old Testament one year, and the New Testament the next year.
2. Walk into any LDS church and you will see hundreds of Bibles that are well read, and marked.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +2

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +2

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

The Bible teaches that prophets are not infallible.

Reasons to agree

1. Writing about the Old Testament prophet Elijah, James said that he was “a man subject to like passions as we are” (James 5:17).
2. Jeremiah got so mad at God that he claimed the Lord had “deceived” him and he swore he would never speak in the name of the Lord again (see Jeremiah 20:7, 9.)
3. Even Peter and Paul had disagreements (see Galatians 2:11-14).

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +3

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +3

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Mormons don't claim their prophets are infallible

Reasons to agree

1. Mormons believe in the Bible (+2), and the Bible teaches that prophets are not infallible (+3).
2. LDS prophets have said they are not perfect.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +2

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +5

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +7

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

The LDS church emphasizes genealogy too much +3

Reasons to agree: +3

1. Life is short. 


2. Living people need things. 


3. If we need help from God anyways to do our family history work back to Adam, then that means the pressure is off of us to do it now.

Scriptures that agree: +1

1. Matt. 8: 21-23 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Scriptures that disagree: -1

1. Mal. 4: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 3

Scriptures that agree: 1

Scriptures that agree: -1

Total Idea Score: 3

The Book of Mormon is racist

Reasons to agree:

1. It is racist that the dark skinned people in the Book of Mormon had their skin turned white, if they are righteous.

Reasons to disagree:

1. Some people say the Book of Mormon is racist against the darker skinned people of the book, because some of the authors say some quotes that sound pretty bad. However the whole book says that they were the more righteous people, and that all the white people were killed off. There were many parts of the book that authors say that the Laminates were more righteous than the Nephites.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +1

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: -0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

The Book of Mormon teaches good things

Reasons to agree

1. The pride cycle, as taught in the book of Mormon, is important.


2. The danger of gangs (secrete combinations), as taught in the book of Mormon, might turn out important.


3. The Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus came to more than just the Israelites, which, if it is true, is neat.

Reasons to disagree

1. The Book of Mormon doesn't teach anything new.


2. The Book of Mormon, like the Old Testament, justifies killing the defenseless (Nephi Killing an unconscious Laban).


3. The Book of Mormon is racist(0).

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +3

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: -2

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

If Joseph Smith told big lies than the Mormon church must not be inspired

Reasons to disagree

1. Scholars don't believe that Paul really wrote all the books attributed to him. If lies about your church's founding mean that your church is wrong, then no Christian churches are true. 

The fact that cool doctrines didn't come from the Church until educated people joined the Mormon church leads you to believe that Joseph Smith might not have been the author of these doctrines

Reasons to disagree

1. Its a nice idea, but no one came forward and said, Joseph Smith's ideas about the pre-mortal existence, baptisms for the dead, the quorum of the 12 apostles, or anything else, really came from them, did they?