The LDS Church should move beyond apologetics.

Reasons to agree

1. LDS apologetics don't work.

Reasons to disagree

1.  If the LDS Church doesn't defend themselves intellectually, then no one will.


2. It is possible for LDS scholars to present the LDS perspective while also being completely faithful to the truth.


3. LDS apologetics do work (see contrading claim above).


4. The term "biased apologetics" is an oxymoron. Apologetics is the discipline of defending a position  through the SYSTEMATIC use of reason. If an apologetic essay is "biased" it is not "systematic", as a systematic approach would address all aspects of an argument and not favor a biased perspective.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Conclusion: The important remaining question is which attempts at apologetic really use a systematic use of reason, and which ones try to confuse the reader.

The LDS Church should move beyond biased apologetics

I think we should dare to be boring, and investigate each belief on its own, and from each angle, because we don't want to keep having portions of the same conversations over and over again, from now until the crack of doom.  Lets do it very well, but only do it once. 

Belief: The LDS Church should move beyond biased apologetics. 

Reasons to agree

1. LDS apologetics don't work. 

Reasons to disagree

1. If the LDS Church doesn't defend themselves intellectually, then no one will.


2. It is possible for LDS scholars to present the LDS perspective without being biased to anything to the truth. 


3. LDS apologetics do work. 


4. The term "biased apologetics" is an oxymoron. Apologetics is the discipline of defending a position  through the SYSTEMATIC use of reason. If it is biased it is not systematic, as a systematic approach would address all aspects of an argument and not favor a biased perspective. 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -4

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is currently no evidence in pre-Columbian history +7

Reasons to agree: +7

1. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Silk, which there is no evidence to support. I don't even think the silk worm lived in North or South America. (Ether 9:17: "Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things."


2. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Linen, which there is no evidence to support. (Ether 9:17: "Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things."


3. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had cattle, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:18: "And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man."


4. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Oxen, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:18: "And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man."


5. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had horses, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:19: "And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.."


6. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had asses, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:19: "And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.."


7. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had sheep, swine, goats, elephants wheat barley, figs, grapes, silk, steel, bellows, brass, breast plates, chains, iron working, plows, swords, scimitars, and chariots. The Smithsonian Institution has stated that "none of the principal food plants and domestic animals of the Old World (except the dog) were present in the New World before Columbus."

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +7

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 7

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God wouldn't purposely hide evidence of himself, in order to make us need faith to believe in him

Fundamentalist Christian Examples might including:

1. God wouldn't purposely plant dinosaur bones, so that we need faith to believe in him

Mormon Examples might including:

1. God wouldn't purposely change the DNA of Native Americans just to make us require faith to be a Mormon.


2. God wouldn't change the language of native Americans from Hebrew, to their current languages, just to make us require faith to be a Mormon.

Reasons to agree

1. If God purposely mislead us, that would be dishonest, and he would cease to be God. 

Reasons to disagree

1. Our laws are not Gods laws. God can kill and lie and stuff, and still be justified. 

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Score:

# of reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

The Book of Mormon says that the Jews are the "principal ancestors of the American Indians", but they were not +3

Reasons to agree

1. DNA proves that Native Americans were not primarily descendant from Jews, as the Book of Mormon says they were. 


2. God wouldn't purposely change the DNA of Native Americans just to make us require faith to be a Mormon. 


3. God wouldn't purposely hide evidence of himself, in order to make us need faith to believe in him. 

Reasons to disagree

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Score:

# of reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0

Total Idea Score: 0

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Related arguments:



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There are too many historical problems with the book of Mormon to say that it is "true" +13

RTA

1. The Book of Mormon says that the Jews are the "principal ancestors of the American Indians", +2 but they were not. +1


2. The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is currently no evidence in pre-Columbian history +7


3. God would not send his message to humanity through a document that had serious historical problems.


4. God would not send his message to humanity through a document that had no historical support. 

Reasons to disagree

1. There are some aspects of the Book of Mormon that support a literal historical interpretation.  +0

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 4

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 10

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 13

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Also see:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_authenticity_of_the_Book_of_Mormon

Easter Sunday at the LDS Church

It is Easter Sunday and the person was assigned to talk about "The Spirit of Christ". He spoke about how the Spirit of Christ can influence those who are not members of our Church. His example was how Robert E Lee took communion with a black man. He may have been nice, but he lead the South in a fight to keep their slaves.



Also quoted D&C 88 and read these word:



"As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.



As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made".



So the moon has its own power that is different than the power of the Sun, and the stars?



There were some good parts, but some very boring parts... In Sunday school we talked for about 20 mins about why Christ told us to be like little Children... So many of these concepts have just been beaten to death. Some of it I probably should be reminded of every once and a while, but for 3 hours every Sunday? Its just too much! Right?

The LDS Church supports a black and white view of the world

Does the LDS Church supports a black and white view of the world? and What are examples? It teaches a black and white view of sin, I guess, and its truth, but does it result in problems with people?



Reasons to agree: +3

1. Some things that the Church says are good for all Mormons are only really good for some Mormons. 


2. The LDS Church leaders say that either the Church is 100% true or it is 100% false, but then they make all these allowances for previous church leaders to sin, and change their opinions. They expect members to believe it 100% and be 100% righteous, but allow church leaders all this latitude to change their beliefs, and commit major sins. 


3. The LDS Church says it is the "one true church".


4. Gordon B. Hinkley: "Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing". Apr conference, 2003.

Reasons to disagree: -0 Leave a comment for me to add one

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Score:

# of reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: -2

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -13

Total Idea Score: -17

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Reasons to agree (-1)

1. (-1) The Book of Mormon is True. (-1) If the Book of Mormon is true, than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true.

Reasons to disagree (-5)

1. (-3) The LDS Church is still doing bad things



2. (-2) The LDS Church has changed doctrines too much for people to worry about following it


3. (-8) LDS leaders claim to have God's authority when they tell people what to do, however they claim they never said they were infallible when they want to change their minds


4. (-1) Joseph Smith lied about the Book of Abraham

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1. http://mormongags.com/

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Interest of those who agree

1. Not wanting to have to live all the strict rules of Mormonism. "If God had a face what would it look like. And would you want to see? If seeing meant that you would have to believe, in things like heaven and in Jesus and the saints and all the Prophets".

Interest of those who disagree

1. Not wanting to have wasted years of their life, and lots of money for nothing.

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Website that agree

1. http://lds.org



2. http://www.fairlds.org/

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1. http://www.realmormonhistory.com/



2. http://www.irr.org/mit/

The Church plays mind games with people by telling them to bear their testimony of things that they don't believe, as a way to find out that what they said is true +1

Reasons to agree

1. "Find Your Testimony by Bearing ¶ It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would that not be dishonest?” ¶ Oh, if I could teach you this one principle: a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it! ¶ Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man is,” as the scripture says, indeed “the candle of the Lord” (Proverbs 20:27).  ¶ It is one thing to receive a witness from what you have read or what another has said; and that is a necessary beginning. It is quite another to have the Spirit confirm to you in your bosom that what you have testified is true. Can you not see that it will be supplied as you share it? As you give that which you have, there is a replacement, with increase! ¶ To speak out is the test of your faith. ¶ Bear testimony of the things that you hope are true, as an act of faith. It is something of an experiment, like the experiment that the prophet Alma proposed to his followers. We begin with faith—not with a perfect knowledge of things. That sermon in the 32nd chapter of Alma is one of the greatest messages in holy writ, for it is addressed to the beginner, to the humble seeker. And it holds a key to a witness of the truth. ¶ The Spirit and testimony of Christ will come to you for the most part when, and remain with you only if, you share it. In that process is the very essence of the gospel. ¶ Is not this a perfect demonstration of Christianity? You cannot find it, nor keep it, nor enlarge it unless and until you are willing to share it. It is by giving it away freely that it becomes yours. (Boyd K. Packer, "The Candle of the Lord," from talk given at seminar for new mission presidents, 25 June 1982, published in "Ensign," January 1983, at: http://lds.org/ensign/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng)

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Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change