May 7, 2011

D&C 132 is pretty terrible +3













D&C 132 is the section of D&C (Mormon Scripture) that Joseph Smith explains the doctrine of Poligamy. Here is the whole thing, but it gets bad here:



50Behold, I have seen your asacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your bsacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as Icaccepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.


Commentary: When he says "sins" remember that this revelation was given in 1843. In 1838  Oliver Cowdery wrote a letter claiming that Smith had an Affair with Fanny Alger. At least this seems to indicate that Oliver was still a descent guy, which seems weird. Some people claim that he was collaborating with Joseph Smith, and that the two of them made the whole thing up... 


 51Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.


These are some weird mind games that Joseph Smith keeps playing with people.... But what was he talking about. 


 52And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.


This is talking about extra wives. How dare he talk about "virtue" and "purity" when he was marrying other men's wives, while they were still married. 



 53For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.





The crazy thing is that Joseph Smith got smart, good people to follow him. 



 54And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.




Here Joseph threatens Emma that if she does not let Joseph have multiple wives, that she will be destroyed. Oh, I mean the Lord threatened her... yeah, that's right.


 55But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold (of wives?) in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives (yep wives!) and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.


 56And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, (I wish I had the Lord around to threaten my wife to forgive me, so that she could be forgiven her trespasses) wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart tobrejoice.


 57And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for aSatanseeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his cexaltation and glory.


 58Now, as touching the law of the apriesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.


 59Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was aAaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that bsent me, and I have endowed him with the ckeys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit dsin, and I will justify him.


 60Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.



 61And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.




(Except Joseph married women that were already married to other men!)


 62And if he have aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.


 63But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be bglorified.


 64And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.


 65Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take aHagar to wife.


 66And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.









There are so many problems with the Book of Mormon that you should disregard spiritual feeling you think you have when reading it

  1. Spiritual feelings, if no stronger than feelings you get when watching Pixar movies, should not over-rule logic. 

  2. Real spiritual guidance should not be ignored, but most Mormons report no more than mild warm and fuzzies when reading the book of Mormon, but often squirm when reading some of the embarrassing parts of the book. Those feelings of embarrassment are just as valid as feelings of enlightenment.

  3.  Of course, you should not disregard real spiritual answers, but you should be aware of confirmation bias, and ensure that spiritual guidance you receive is of a different nature than spiritual confirmation others receive to stay in their religions. 

  1. The Book of Mormon has many inspiring quotes. 

  2. The Book of Mormon has many inspiring stories.



# of reasons to agree: 3
# of reasons to disagree: -2
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
Total Idea Score: 1


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Apr 30, 2011

There are many similarities between Quetzalcoatl and Jesus Christ

Reasons to agree



  1.  "Teotihuacan arose as a new religious center in the Mexican Highland, around the time of Christ..." Teotihuacan: Introduction". Project Temple of Quetzalcoatl, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, Mexico/ ASU. 2001-08-20. Retrieved 2009-05-17

  1. Mormons often say that 

There are some aspects of the Book of Mormon that support a literal historical interpretation +0


Reasons to agree: +1


  1. Latter-day Saint President John Taylor was right when he wrote: "Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being". The fact that south american cultures believed in a bearded white God named Quetzalcoatl supports the story in the Book of Mormon. 



Reasons to disagree: -1




  1. The Bible has enough problems with historical accuracy. If you are going to come along and start a new religion, and say that God has placed his official stamp of approval on this new religion, with new scriptures, the new scriptures should have less problems than the old scriptures, which have been around a long time so that errors of mankind can slip into the things of God... However the Book of Mormon has more archaeological problems than the Bible. There is no city in the Book of Mormon, that you can say existed in then and still exists now... I know, I know, Mormons will say you can't compare the two because the people who lived in cities, and kept written records, according to the Book of Mormon, were all killed off at the end of the Book... But still... we have some archaeology from that time, and it does not compare well to the amount of archaeology that we have to support the rest of Christianity. Right? I'm not an expert, but that is my impression. Is there any way of quantifying this? 









# of reasons to agree: +1


# of reasons to disagree: -1


# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0


Total Idea Score: +0





Scriptures that agree: +


Scriptures that disagree: -



Images That agree: +

Images That disagree: -



Valid Interest of those who agree: +

Valid Interest of those who disagree: -





Videos That agree: +

Videos That disagree: -





Website that agree: +

Websites that disagree: -






Podcast that agree: +

Podcast that disagree: -



Unbiased Experts who agree: +

Unbiased Experts who disagree: -



Books that Agree: +

Books that Agree: -











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Common Interest:

Opposing Interest:



Related arguments:




Apr 27, 2011

We should not begrudge faithful Mormon their desire to preserve faith by focusing on the good bits

Reasons to disagree

  1. Some people need faith

  1. Following the spirit is problematic, because if all your family, and your upbringing tells you the Church is true, then of course when you doubt you are going to feel uncomfortable. The church tells you this uncomfortable feeling is the spirit leaving you, and so you get stuck never knowing the truth.



We should avoid conflating "the good" with "the true"

Reasons to agree



  1. Whatever is good is true.

  2. It is better to be good than right.





  1. Whatever is good, is not necessarily true.

  2. Being right is good.

  3. We can't face the real problems unless we live in reality.



It is moral not to hold on to implausible claims when they support a problematical construal of God

  1. I'm not sure I get this right, but it sounded like he was saying that believing in "the God of 3 Nephi 9, D&C 132, Abraham 1" is immoral. Or at least not believing in them is Moral.

  2. If God exists, perhaps He will forgive our stitching together models of goodness from “this-worldly” expressions untethered to extraordinary Mormon claims.

  3. This stance seems to avoid conflating "the good" with "the true" while leaving one open to both.

  1. Just because a construct of God is problematic, does not make it immoral.

  2. This is all just a mater of semantics. Sure, from a worldly standpoint it is moral to believe whatever you want. This does not mean it is true. Both believing and not believing can be moral. I'm not sure Bushman's point of view was accurately represented, but I assume Bushman feels that Josoph Smith was a Moral guy, and that Mormonism helps make Bushman a better guy. Much like what Peter said to Jesus, when he asked if Peter was also going to leave. Peter said, but where would we go for the worlds of Eternal life. I assume that is what Bushman meant, that he is still getting something out of Mormonism, and that he sticks with it because he thinks it makes him a more moral person.



Leaving the Church can be a moral choice.

Reasons to agree:



1. It is moral not to hold on to implausible claims when they support a problematical construal of God


Saying that God would test our faith with designed-implausibility, makes God into a pious-fraud.

Reasons to agree



  1. A fraud is someone who says they are something that they are not. God never said he wouldn't hide himself so intellectuals couldn't find him. He does talk about stumbling blocks. I don't think that God tests our faith with designed implausibility, but if he did I wouldn't call him a fraud. I can see why he would do it. He would want nice people who pray, and stuff to make it into heaven, not people that construct logical towers of Babel.





Book of Mormon anachronistic do not prove the Book of Mormon is false.

Reasons to agree:



1. Someone on the other side perhaps Nephi in a ‘postmortem’ state provided the anachronistic Isaiah material.” (I'm not sure I follow this line of thought. It it assuming that this person provided a more accurate version of Isiah? I'm not sure how getting help from an Angel would explain problems with Isaiah in 2nd Nephi any differently than getting the translation from the Urim and Thummim.
2. Jesus could have intentionally communicated the Isaiah anachronisms to Mormon and Moroni.


Jesus could have intentionally communicated the Isaiah anachronisms to Mormon and Moroni

Reasons to agree



  1. Our ways are not God's ways.

  2. God did lots of things in the Old Testament, and some in the New Testament, that don't sound ethical to us. But God may not have to live by our definition of ethical.

  3. God could be testing us. "Smart" people won't believe, but people that keep praying, and reading their scriptures will believe, just as God intended.



  1. God would not test our faith with designed-implausibility.



God would not test our faith with designed-implausibility. -2


Reasons to agree: 3


  1. God cannot be said to purposely deceive us, and also be a god of truth. 

  2. Saying that God purposely made his Church hard for intellectuals to accept disrespects God

  3. The normal course of life provide enough stumbling blocks, without designed-implausibility.  What would such a construct of God be salvaging?


Reasons to disagree: -5



  1. God never explains himself. He told Abraham to kill his son. Abraham could have researched if that commandment jived with the other commandments, but we are supposed to believe that it was counted to Abraham for righteousness.

  2. Elijah (?) didn't explain himself when he told that guy to bath in that river (?) to fix his leprosy

  3. We are told that Jesus purposely made the "eat of my flesh" and "drink of my blood" commandment confusing, as a test to weed out his followers.

  4. God's ways are not our ways. 

  5. God doesn't have to follow our rules. 






# of reasons to agree: 3


# of reasons to disagree: -5


# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0


Total Idea Score: -2









Related arguments:




  1. Saying there are Old Testament scriptures that support something is meaningless, because so many Old Scriptures contradict each other.

  2. Saying there are Old Testament scriptures that support something is meaningless, because so many Old Scriptures contradict the New Testament.

  3. Saying there are Old Testament scriptures that support something is meaningless, because so many Old Scriptures can be used to do terrible things.





Apr 26, 2011

The LDS Church should move beyond apologetics.

  1. LDS apologetics don't work.

  1.  If the LDS Church doesn't defend themselves intellectually, then no one will.

  2. It is possible for LDS scholars to present the LDS perspective while also being completely faithful to the truth.

  3. LDS apologetics do work (see contrading claim above).

  4. The term "biased apologetics" is an oxymoron. Apologetics is the discipline of defending a position  through the SYSTEMATIC use of reason. If an apologetic essay is "biased" it is not "systematic", as a systematic approach would address all aspects of an argument and not favor a biased perspective.





# of reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to disagree: -0
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
Total Idea Score: 0


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Conclusion: The important remaining question is which attempts at apologetic really use a systematic use of reason, and which ones try to confuse the reader.

The LDS Church should move beyond biased apologetics

I think we should dare to be boring, and investigate each belief on its own, and from each angle, because we don't want to keep having portions of the same conversations over and over again, from now until the crack of doom.  Lets do it very well, but only do it once. 


Belief: The LDS Church should move beyond biased apologetics. 


  1. LDS apologetics don't work. 

  1. If the LDS Church doesn't defend themselves intellectually, then no one will.

  2. It is possible for LDS scholars to present the LDS perspective without being biased to anything to the truth. 

  3. LDS apologetics do work. 

  4. The term "biased apologetics" is an oxymoron. Apologetics is the discipline of defending a position  through the SYSTEMATIC use of reason. If it is biased it is not systematic, as a systematic approach would address all aspects of an argument and not favor a biased perspective. 



# of reasons to agree: 1
# of reasons to disagree: -4
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
Total Idea Score: 0


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Apr 24, 2011

The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is currently no evidence in pre-Columbian history +7




  1. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Silk, which there is no evidence to support. I don't even think the silk worm lived in North or South America. (Ether 9:17: "Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things."

  2. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Linen, which there is no evidence to support. (Ether 9:17: "Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things."

  3. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had cattle, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:18: "And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man."

  4. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Oxen, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:18: "And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man."

  5. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had horses, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:19: "And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.."

  6. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had asses, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:19: "And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.."

  7. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had sheep, swine, goats, elephants wheat barley, figs, grapes, silk, steel, bellows, brass, breast plates, chains, iron working, plows, swords, scimitars, and chariots. The Smithsonian Institution has stated that "none of the principal food plants and domestic animals of the Old World (except the dog) were present in the New World before Columbus."









# of reasons to agree: +7





# of reasons to disagree: -0




# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0




# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0




Total Idea Score: 7









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Website that agree














Websites that disagree












God wouldn't purposely hide evidence of himself, in order to make us need faith to believe in him

Fundamentalist Christian Examples might including:
  1. God wouldn't purposely plant dinosaur bones, so that we need faith to believe in him

Mormon Examples might including:
  1. God wouldn't purposely change the DNA of Native Americans just to make us require faith to be a Mormon.

  2. God wouldn't change the language of native Americans from Hebrew, to their current languages, just to make us require faith to be a Mormon.



  1. If God purposely mislead us, that would be dishonest, and he would cease to be God. 

  1. Our laws are not Gods laws. God can kill and lie and stuff, and still be justified. 



Scriptures that agree



Scriptures that disagree
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Interest of those who agree



Interest of those who disagree
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Common Interest



Opposing Interest
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Videos That agree
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Videos That disagree
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    # of reasons to agree: 0
    # of reasons to disagree: -0
    # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
    # of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
    Total Idea Score: 0


    Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

    The Book of Mormon says that the Jews are the "principal ancestors of the American Indians", but they were not +3





    Reasons to agree




    1. DNA proves that Native Americans were not primarily descendant from Jews, as the Book of Mormon says they were. 

    2. God wouldn't purposely change the DNA of Native Americans just to make us require faith to be a Mormon. 

    3. God wouldn't purposely hide evidence of himself, in order to make us need faith to believe in him. 


    Reasons to disagree


    1.   



    Videos That agree











    Videos That disagree











    Scriptures that agree






    Scriptures that disagree








    # of reasons to agree: 0

    # of reasons to disagree: -0

    # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

    # of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0

    Total Idea Score: 0






    Images That agree

    Images That disagree



    Interest of those who agree

    Interest of those who disagree



    Common Interest

    Opposing Interest



    Website that agree

    Websites that disagree



    Related arguments:



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    There are too many historical problems with the book of Mormon to say that it is "true" +13




    1. The Book of Mormon says that the Jews are the "principal ancestors of the American Indians"+2 but they were not. +1

    2. The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is currently no evidence in pre-Columbian history +7

    3. God would not send his message to humanity through a document that had serious historical problems.

    4. God would not send his message to humanity through a document that had no historical support. 





    1. There are some aspects of the Book of Mormon that support a literal historical interpretation.  +0


















      # of reasons to agree: 4





      # of reasons to disagree: -1




      # of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 10




      # of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0




      Total Idea Score: 13








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      Easter Sunday at the LDS Church

      It is Easter Sunday and the person was assigned to talk about "The Spirit of Christ". He spoke about how the Spirit of Christ can influence those who are not members of our Church. His example was how Robert E Lee took communion with a black man. He may have been nice, but he lead the South in a fight to keep their slaves.



      Also quoted D&C 88 and read these word:



      "As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.



      As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made".



      So the moon has its own power that is different than the power of the Sun, and the stars?



      There were some good parts, but some very boring parts... In Sunday school we talked for about 20 mins about why Christ told us to be like little Children... So many of these concepts have just been beaten to death. Some of it I probably should be reminded of every once and a while, but for 3 hours every Sunday? Its just too much! Right?