The LDS Church should move beyond apologetics.

Reasons to agree

1. LDS apologetics don't work.

Reasons to disagree

1.  If the LDS Church doesn't defend themselves intellectually, then no one will.


2. It is possible for LDS scholars to present the LDS perspective while also being completely faithful to the truth.


3. LDS apologetics do work (see contrading claim above).


4. The term "biased apologetics" is an oxymoron. Apologetics is the discipline of defending a position  through the SYSTEMATIC use of reason. If an apologetic essay is "biased" it is not "systematic", as a systematic approach would address all aspects of an argument and not favor a biased perspective.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Conclusion: The important remaining question is which attempts at apologetic really use a systematic use of reason, and which ones try to confuse the reader.

The LDS Church should move beyond biased apologetics

I think we should dare to be boring, and investigate each belief on its own, and from each angle, because we don't want to keep having portions of the same conversations over and over again, from now until the crack of doom.  Lets do it very well, but only do it once. 

Belief: The LDS Church should move beyond biased apologetics. 

Reasons to agree

1. LDS apologetics don't work. 

Reasons to disagree

1. If the LDS Church doesn't defend themselves intellectually, then no one will.


2. It is possible for LDS scholars to present the LDS perspective without being biased to anything to the truth. 


3. LDS apologetics do work. 


4. The term "biased apologetics" is an oxymoron. Apologetics is the discipline of defending a position  through the SYSTEMATIC use of reason. If it is biased it is not systematic, as a systematic approach would address all aspects of an argument and not favor a biased perspective. 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -4

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is currently no evidence in pre-Columbian history +7

Reasons to agree: +7

1. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Silk, which there is no evidence to support. I don't even think the silk worm lived in North or South America. (Ether 9:17: "Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things."


2. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Linen, which there is no evidence to support. (Ether 9:17: "Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things."


3. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had cattle, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:18: "And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man."


4. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had Oxen, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:18: "And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man."


5. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had horses, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:19: "And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.."


6. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had asses, which there is no evidence to support.  (Ether 9:19: "And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.."


7. The Book of Mormon claims that Ancient Americans had sheep, swine, goats, elephants wheat barley, figs, grapes, silk, steel, bellows, brass, breast plates, chains, iron working, plows, swords, scimitars, and chariots. The Smithsonian Institution has stated that "none of the principal food plants and domestic animals of the Old World (except the dog) were present in the New World before Columbus."

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +7

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 7

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Images That agree

Website that agree

1. 
   
   

Websites that disagree

1. 
   

God wouldn't purposely hide evidence of himself, in order to make us need faith to believe in him

Fundamentalist Christian Examples might including:

1. God wouldn't purposely plant dinosaur bones, so that we need faith to believe in him

Mormon Examples might including:

1. God wouldn't purposely change the DNA of Native Americans just to make us require faith to be a Mormon.


2. God wouldn't change the language of native Americans from Hebrew, to their current languages, just to make us require faith to be a Mormon.

Reasons to agree

1. If God purposely mislead us, that would be dishonest, and he would cease to be God. 

Reasons to disagree

1. Our laws are not Gods laws. God can kill and lie and stuff, and still be justified. 

Images That agree

1.   

Images That disagree

1. 
   
   

Scriptures that agree

1. 
   
   

Scriptures that disagree

1.  

Interest of those who agree

1. 
   
   

Interest of those who disagree

1.  

Common Interest

1. 
   
   

Opposing Interest

1.  

Videos That agree

1.  

Videos That disagree

1.  

Website that agree

1. 
   
   

Websites that disagree

1. 
   
   

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

It is a problem for the Mormon Church that the Book of Mormon Says That the Jews Are the Principal Ancestors of the American Indians, but they were not +3

Reasons to Agree:

List of Reasons

1. Book of Mormon Introduction Statement: The introduction to the Book of Mormon states: "Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel."

2. Historical Teachings of the LDS Church: Many past statements from LDS Church leaders, including Joseph Smith and early church authorities, affirmed that Native Americans were direct descendants of the Jews.

3. Scriptural Support in the Book of Mormon: Various passages in the Book of Mormon (e.g., 2 Nephi 3:3, Alma 10:3) describe the Lamanites as being of the house of Israel, reinforcing the claim of Jewish ancestry.

---

Reasons to Disagree:

List of Reasons

1. Modern DNA Evidence: Genetic studies have consistently shown that Native American populations trace ancestry back to Central and East Asia rather than the Middle East. See Wikipedia - Genetics and the Book of Mormon.

2. LDS Church Cover-Up and Revisionism: The introduction to the Book of Mormon was revised in 2006, changing "principal ancestors" to "among the ancestors," demonstrating an Orwellian attempt to rewrite history while maintaining claims of prophetic infallibility.

3. Infallibility vs. Changing Doctrine: LDS leaders claim to speak directly to God and declare the Book of Mormon the most correct book ever written. However, historical revisions and doctrinal shifts suggest a pattern of altering past claims while insisting on prophetic authority.

4. Parallel to Political Rewriting of History: Just as political scandals (e.g., Whitewater, Trump's January 6th justifications) involve covering up mistakes while asserting authority, the LDS leadership similarly revises past teachings while maintaining claims of infallibility.

---

Score Analysis:

Scoring Criteria

• # of Reasons to Agree: 3

• # of Reasons to Disagree: 4

• # of Reasons to Agree with Reasons to Agree: 0

• # of Reasons to Disagree with Reasons to Agree: 0

• Total Idea Score: 3-4=-1

---

Supporting Evidence:

Evidence Scores

• Books That Agree:

  • The Book of Mormon – Joseph Smith (More Books)

  • Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith – Compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith

• Books That Disagree:

  • Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church – Simon G. Southerton

  • An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins – Grant H. Palmer

• Legal References That Agree: Local, Federal, and International Laws

  1. Fraud: Lying to obtain financial or personal gain can result in criminal charges, such as wire fraud, tax fraud, and securities fraud. The LDS church lies to its members, hides its past mistakes, and still claims to be infallible, requiring members in good faith to pay 10% of their income to the church, which is built on lies.

  2. False Advertising: Companies can be sued for misleading consumers about products or services.

---

Interests and Motivations:

Interest Analysis

• The interest of Those Who Agree:

  • Exposing historical and doctrinal revisions

  • Promoting scientific and genetic research

  • Advocating historical accuracy in religious narratives

• The interest of Those Who Disagree:

  • Defending traditional LDS teachings

  • Upholding religious faith in the Book of Mormon

• Common Interests:

  • Seeking and promoting truth

• Opposing Interests:

  • Defending faith-based interpretations vs. scientific evidence

  • Maintaining institutional credibility

---

Media That Supports the Idea:

Media Analysis

• Websites That Agree:

  • Simon Southerton’s Blog

  • Wikipedia - Genetics and the Book of Mormon

• Websites That Disagree:

  • The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

  • Book of Mormon Central

---

Multimedia Analysis:

• Images That Support the Idea: Supporting Images

• Videos That Support the Idea:

  • Does DNA Evidence prove the Book of Mormon is false? https://youtu.be/-yZ7WEfPOx8

• Songs That Support the Idea: Supporting Songs

---

Potential Benefits of Accepting This Idea:

List of Benefits

• Greater understanding of LDS doctrine and its evolution over time.

• Improved reconciliation between religious faith and scientific findings.

• Encouragement of open dialogue between faith communities and academia.

• Increased awareness of institutional revisionism and historical accuracy.

---

Conclusion:

If you disagree with the score or analysis, you can contribute by posting additional reasons to agree or disagree. Each contribution will affect the total idea score, ensuring a dynamic and community-driven evaluation process.

There are too many historical problems with the book of Mormon to say that it is "true" +13

RTA

1. The Book of Mormon says that the Jews are the "principal ancestors of the American Indians", +2 but they were not. +1


2. The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is currently no evidence in pre-Columbian history +7


3. God would not send his message to humanity through a document that had serious historical problems.


4. God would not send his message to humanity through a document that had no historical support. 

Reasons to disagree

1. There are some aspects of the Book of Mormon that support a literal historical interpretation.  +0

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 4

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 10

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 13

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Also see:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_authenticity_of_the_Book_of_Mormon

Easter Sunday at the LDS Church

It is Easter Sunday and the person was assigned to talk about "The Spirit of Christ". He spoke about how the Spirit of Christ can influence those who are not members of our Church. His example was how Robert E Lee took communion with a black man. He may have been nice, but he lead the South in a fight to keep their slaves.



Also quoted D&C 88 and read these word:



"As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.



As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made".



So the moon has its own power that is different than the power of the Sun, and the stars?



There were some good parts, but some very boring parts... In Sunday school we talked for about 20 mins about why Christ told us to be like little Children... So many of these concepts have just been beaten to death. Some of it I probably should be reminded of every once and a while, but for 3 hours every Sunday? Its just too much! Right?

The LDS Church supports a black and white view of the world

Does the LDS Church supports a black and white view of the world? and What are examples? It teaches a black and white view of sin, I guess, and its truth, but does it result in problems with people?



Reasons to agree: +3

1. Some things that the Church says are good for all Mormons are only really good for some Mormons. 


2. The LDS Church leaders say that either the Church is 100% true or it is 100% false, but then they make all these allowances for previous church leaders to sin, and change their opinions. They expect members to believe it 100% and be 100% righteous, but allow church leaders all this latitude to change their beliefs, and commit major sins. 


3. The LDS Church says it is the "one true church".


4. Gordon B. Hinkley: "Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing". Apr conference, 2003.

Reasons to disagree: -0 Leave a comment for me to add one

1.  

Images That agree

1.   

Images That disagree

1. 
   
   

Scriptures that agree

1. 
   
   

Scriptures that disagree

1.  

Interest of those who agree

1. 
   
   

Interest of those who disagree

1.  

Common Interest

1. 
   
   

Opposing Interest

1.  

Videos That agree

1.  

Videos That disagree

1.  

Website that agree

1. 
   
   

Websites that disagree

1. 
   
   

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: -2

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -13

Total Idea Score: -17

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Reasons to agree (-1)

1. (-1) The Book of Mormon is True. (-1) If the Book of Mormon is true, than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true.

Reasons to disagree (-5)

1. (-3) The LDS Church is still doing bad things



2. (-2) The LDS Church has changed doctrines too much for people to worry about following it


3. (-8) LDS leaders claim to have God's authority when they tell people what to do, however they claim they never said they were infallible when they want to change their minds


4. (-1) Joseph Smith lied about the Book of Abraham

e

Images That agree

Images That disagree

1. http://mormongags.com/

Scriptures that agree

1. 
   
   

Scriptures that disagree

Interest of those who agree

1. Not wanting to have to live all the strict rules of Mormonism. "If God had a face what would it look like. And would you want to see? If seeing meant that you would have to believe, in things like heaven and in Jesus and the saints and all the Prophets".

Interest of those who disagree

1. Not wanting to have wasted years of their life, and lots of money for nothing.

Common Interest

1. 
   
   

Opposing Interest

Videos That agree

Videos That disagree

Website that agree

1. http://lds.org



2. http://www.fairlds.org/

Websites that disagree

1. http://www.realmormonhistory.com/



2. http://www.irr.org/mit/