Joseph Smith had relationships with women so much younger than him, that it shows that he did not value them as intellectual or spiritual beings +3

Reasons to agree: +4

1. Joseph was 38 when he married Helen Mar Kimball who was only 14. She continued to live with her parents, and never married lived with Joseph. When she grew up she married someone else, and never seemed to have had sex with Joseph. They were trying to just seal people to each other, but still it seems weird that Joseph would seal her to him as a wife. Why didn't he just adopt her as a daughter?


2. Joseph Smith was 28 when he had an affair, or a plural marriage with Fanny Alger who was 16.


3. Joseph Smith was 37 when he married Sarah Ann Whitney who was 17 years old.


4. Statements by William Law and Eliza R. Snow indicate that the marriages included sexual intimacy.[121][122] "Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this." - Joseph Smith's close confidant and LDS Church First Councilor, William Law, Interview in Salt Lake Tribune, July 31, 188. When Heber C. Kimball asked Sister Eliza R. Snow the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith, she replied, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that." - Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.

Reasons to disagree: -1

1. No DNA evidence exist that Joseph Smith fathered any other children than with his wife Emma. Most historians agree that Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, taught and practiced polygamy during his ministry, and married several dozen women during his lifetime, even though Smith, and the leading quorums of his church, publicly denied he taught or practiced it.[1][2][3] Additionally, after his death, several women were "sealed" to him.[4]

If you say that Joseph Smith was evil, then you have to say that many of the Popes were evil

Reasons to agree

1. Many of the Popes did bad things. 

Reasons to disagree

1. According to the same logic you would condemn all the apostles for the greed of Judas and the cowardice of Peter

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +13

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +12

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It is worse for the Mormon church if Joseph Smith was evil, than it is for the Catholic church if some of the Popes were evil

Reasons to agree

1. Catholics can say that they had some evil Popes, but that was just a time that the Church was struggling. They can also point at very good popes. They don't have a Pope, that some say was evil, that started the whole thing.

Reasons to disagree

1. It may be a little bit worse, but it is essentially saying the same thing. It is saying that sure churches may be a little bit inspired, but they are not very inspired. If you want to find a little bit of meaning from your Church, that is fine, but it is sort of Stupid to put a whole lot of faith in a Church that would make real big mistakes.
2. If your church made real big mistakes in the past, or its leaders weren't much better than you, why should you totally alter your life, doing what it says, when what it is telling you might be a mistake also.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +1

# of reasons to disagree: -2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: -2

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There is more reason to say that Joseph Smith had bad motivation than Moses

Reasons to agree

1. Moses, to the best of our knowledge, never used it position as a way to increase the number of his sexual partners.

Reasons to disagree

1. Moses killed an Egyptian. If you applied the same methods of judging Moses, that some want you to judge Joseph Smith then he would not come out looking to good.

Saying Joseph Smith was power hungry is like saying Moses is power hungry

Reasons to agree:

1. Power does not always corrupt.
2. People can have noble motives to lead.

Reasons to disagree:

1. There is more reason to say that Joseph Smith had bad motivation than Moses.

Joseph Smith seemed to like power -1

Reasons to agree:

1. Joseph liked dressing in Military uniforms. 


2. Joseph ran for president. 

Reasons to disagree:

1. Saying Joseph Smith was power hungry is like saying Moses is power hungry. +2

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 2

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -2

Total Idea Score: -1

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Joseph smith's motivations were pure -1

Reasons to agree

1. Joseph worked his whole life in menial labor trying to build up the kingdom of God.


2. Joseph's wife stayed married to him.


3. Many people stayed loyal to him.


4. Joseph tried to build a zion-like society, and paid respect to grace, and virtue.


5. Joseph bought a slave his freedom.

Reasons to agree

1. Joseph seemed to like power. -1


2. Joseph tried to form a bank, perhaps he was trying to get rich.


3. Joseph seems to have introduced polygamy as a way to increase his sex partners.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 5

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -1

Total Idea Score: -1

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Related arguments:



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You can logically believe that Joseph was once inspired but had fallen.

Reasons to agree:

1. True, no one is perfect one day and totally evil the next day, but it makes sense that someone could have qualified at one time for spiritual guidance, lost it, and gone astray.

Reasons to disagree:

1. David fell, and Judus, but God wouldn't mess with people so much, to send a new prophet in the latter days, and let him fall.


2. Mormons leaders have said that God will not let them lead the church astray. But if Joseph Smith was removed because of polygamy, why wasn't Brigham Young? If Brigham Young was removed because of his view's on race, why weren't the next church leaders?

It is important to analyze unbiased history around Joseph Smith

Reasons to agree

1. All truth is important.


2. Historical truth is important.

Reasons to disagree

1. Whatever problems have emerged in his story are not really to be examined because they are of God and so the explanation for them lies in the mystery of God.

The treatment by LDS leaders to Black men indicates that the church is not inspired

Reasons to agree

1. You are told as a Mormon to brag to your non-Mormon friends that we have a living prophet who can tell us things that God wants us to know. If God really has a special relationship with the LDS prophet, there are no good explanations of why God would wait until 1978 for him to tell our Church to start giving Blacks the priesthood.

Reasons to disagree

1. Sure, the LDS people and leaders were racist, but when your talking about theology, it shouldn't matter when a church changed, just that it ever was Bad. It shouldn't matter that it was longer ago that Baptist preachers were slave holders. If the baptist doctrine was so flimsy that it can change from once supporting slavery, then there is not much of a doctrine that is worth while. If Catholic Popes were really bad a long time ago, it doesn't make it any worse for Mormons, that their prophet was bad more recently... You can say that the Mormon culture sucked that it was racest for so long, but if you are going to choose a church for its doctrine, then there is no church that was always good racialy, and you shouldn't be embarrassed to choose the LDS church now. Of course you should be a little humble when trying to brag how supper-duper-smart-and-in-touch with God that your prophet is, but you can still believe he is sort-of inspired.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

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Joseph Smith lied about the Book of Abraham +2

Reasons to agree: 7

1. One of the worst things is people who are confident, but are wrong. Joseph smith confidently proclaimed the translation of the facsimiles in the Pearl of Great Price. He was completely wrong. Not even close. When someone gets things this wrong, you must assume, what other things did he just make up? 


2. Joseph lied when he described his process as a translation. 


3. Joseph Smith described his work as translating from the papyrus that he found. Modern scholars have proven that Smiths translation does not match the original papyrus. Perhaps Joseph Smith was really inspired. Perhaps the information is really from God. However, you should not lie to exaggerate or misrepresent what really happened. It is wrong to lie. It is wrong to say you translated, if you are just getting thoughts and ideas that are unrelated to what is on a papyrus. Henry B. Eyring said that God did not need something written down on papyrus in order to get his message to us. Of course he is right, but Joseph shouldn't have acted like he was translating. In order to still believe the Church is true, you have to believe that Joseph was sort of a charlatan, but that God used a boastful, exaggerating, man to bring forth the truth. This is probably not the case. 


4. In the Times and Seasons Joseph presented, and other Church leaders continued to present drawings with interpretations that have been proven to be wrong.


5. Modern scholars, including Mormon scholars, date the papyri to a few hundred not thousands of years before Christ, but Joseph Smith said that Abraham wrote on the scrolls with his own hand. 


6. It seems that Joseph invented hieroglyphic characters to fill in for missing characters lost by the lacuna 


7. According to Smith, the book was "a translation of some ancient records ... purporting to be the writings of Abraham, while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus". However they are actually commonly used funderal texts, and were not written by the Prophet Abraham.

Reasons to disagree: 3

1. John Laurence Gee (born 1964) is an American Latter-day Saint and Egyptologist at Brigham Young University (BYU) who is known for his writings in support of the Book of Abraham.


2. The phrase "by his own hand" can simply mean that Abraham is the author of the book. Similarly, we could hold a modern printed Bible in our hands, point to 1 Corinthians, and say, "This was written by the Apostle Paul." 


3. Joseph was translating the writings of Abraham, so it is quite possible that he believed that the actual scroll in his possession was written by Abraham himself. There is no evidence, however, that this belief was based on revelation.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: +7

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: -0

Total Idea Score: +4

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Website that agree

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham


2. http://www.bookofabraham.info/


3. http://ldsdebate.blogspot.com/search/label/Book%20of%20Abraham

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Images That agree

Figure	Joseph Smith Explanation[40]	Explanation by non-Mormon and Mormon Egyptologists (quotes are from Deveria 1860)[25][41][42][43][44][45]
1	The Angel of the Lord.	"The soul of Osiris (which should have a human head)"
2	Abraham fastened upon an altar.	"Osiris coming to life on his couch, which is in the shape of a lion"
3	The idolatrous priest of Elkenah attempting to offer up Abraham as a sacrifice.	"The God Anubis (who should have a jackal's head) effecting the resurrection of Osiris"
4	The altar for sacrifice by the idolatrous priests, standing before the gods of Elkenah [sic], Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and Pharaoh.	"The funeral bed of Osiris"
5	The idolatrous god of Elkenah.	Canopic jar portraying Qebehsenuf with a falcon's head - one of thefour sons of Horus
6	The idolatrous god of Libnah.	Canopic jar portraying Duamutef with a jackal's head - one of the four sons of Horus
7	The idolatrous god of Mahmackrah.	Canopic jar portraying Hapy with an ape's head - one of the four sons of Horus
8	The idolatrous god of Korash.	Canopic jar portraying Imsety with a human head - one of the four sons of Horus
9	The idolatrous god of Pharaoh.	"The sacred crocodile, symbolic of the god Sedet"
10	Abraham in Egypt.	"Altar laden with offerings"
11	Designed to represent the pillars of heaven, as understood by the Egyptians.	"An ornament peculiar to Egyptian art"
12	Raukeeyang, signifying expanse, or the firmament over our heads; but in this case, in relation to this subject, the Egyptians meant it to signify Shaumau, to be high, or the heavens, answering to the Hebrew word, Shaumahyeem.	"Customary representation of ground in Egyptian paintings (The word Shauman is not Egyptian, and the Hebrew word is badly copied)"

Parents who love their children cannot afford to be intimidated by them

Reasons to agree

1. Your job, as a parent, isn't to let children learn from their own mistakes, but to protect them while they are young from setting bad habits, and to try to get them to learn from other people's mistakes.


2. Children might not be aware they are in danger.


3. Children are stupid adults.


4. Children are children.


5. You can destroy your life, if you get trapped in drugs, alcohol, or unhealthy sexual relationships.


6. People who are intimidated will defer, and you should not defer to children on important things.

Reasons to agree

1. You can't control your children. Children are going to eventually make up their own minds and so you should let them learn from their own mistakes.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 5

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 5

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Sleepovers are bad

Reasons to agree

1. Too many youth try alcohol for the first time at a sleepover.
2. Too many youth try tobacco for the first time at a sleepover.
3. Too many youth have their first exposure to pornography at a sleepover.
4. Peer pressure becomes more powerful when our children are away from our influence.
5. Our defenses are weakened late at night.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 5

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 5

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(+5) Families should spend time together once a week

Reasons to agree

1. Parenting is rewarding if you do a good job.


2. Children need a good relationship with their parent.


3. Families that play together stay together.


4. If you don't make it a goal to do every week, it will not get done.


5. If you have time to watch TV you have time to spend with your family.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 5

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 5

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The Kindle is better than the Nook

Lead Editor: Mike Laub Just tell me your e-mail address, and you can contribute! Reasons to agree: % The Kindle cost $10 less than the Nook. The kindle is 8.7 ounces, the Nook is 11.2 ounces (28% heavier).  The Kindle has new and improved "Pearl" e-ink screen.         R2A(+): 1       R2AA(+): 0       R2DA(-): 0        Reasons to disagree: % The Kindle can not read files in the EPUB format.         R2D(-): 0       R2AD(-): 0       R2DD(+): 0        Total Score: 1 Most Probable interest of those who agree:  % Validating the decision they already made. Most Probable interest of those who disagree: % Validating the decision they already made. Books that can be said to agree: % Books that can be said to disagree: %   People that agree: People that disagree: Webpages that agree: ?  Webpages that disagree: ? Values that agree: Values that disagree:   It is nerdy to analyze issues with this much detail.