God would not want a church to convert people with half-truths or omissions. +8

Reasons to agree

1. The Ninth Commandment - Thou Shalt Not Lie
   


2. "Only error needs to fear freedom of expression" Hugh B. Brown


3. "Now I have mentioned freedom to express your thoughts, but I caution you that your thoughts and expressions must meet competition in the market place of thought, and in that competition truth will emerge triumphant. Only error needs to fear freedom of expression. Seek truth in all fields, and in that search you will need at least three virtues; courage, zest, and modesty. The ancients put that thought in the form of a prayer. They said, 'From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth, from the laziness that is content with half truth, from the arrogance that thinks it has all truth—O God of truth deliver us'." ~ Hugh B. Brown


4. 1. Oh say, what is truth? ’Tis the fairest gem That the riches of worlds can produce, And priceless the value of truth will be when The proud monarch’s costliest diadem Is counted but dross and refuse. 2. Yes, say, what is truth? ’Tis the brightest prize To which mortals or Gods can aspire. Go search in the depths where it glittering lies, Or ascend in pursuit to the loftiest skies: ’Tis an aim for the noblest desire. 3. The sceptre may fall from the despot’s grasp When with winds of stern justice he copes. But the pillar of truth will endure to the last, And its firm-rooted bulwarks outstand the rude blast And the wreck of the fell tyrant’s hopes. 4. Then say, what is truth? ’Tis the last and the first, For the limits of time it steps o’er. Tho the heavens depart and the earth’s fountains burst, Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst, Eternal, unchanged, evermore. Text: John Jaques, 1827–1900


5. According to LDS doctrine an uninformed choice is not a valid exercise of agency for which someone is held accountable or rewarded +3


6. Even if the Church is true, you have to choose the church knowing the truth about it, in order to be rewarded from the God of truth, or else your choice doesn't mean anything

Reasons to disagree

1. Jesus seemed to believe there was a difference between full immediate disclosure and telling half truths and omissions. Jesus seemed to argue for holding some things back, when he said to feed people milk at first, before meat. Maybe the real Jesus never said this, and so we still have to think about if we agree with it, or it fits in with other things that make up the fundamental core of Jesus's teaching. That being said I agree that there are certain things that the Church should teach, that they are not now, before someone gets baptized, including polyandry, blacks and the priesthood, etc. This is the ideal view, but are Catholics going to do the same thing? Scientology? Atheist? Does every atheist that tells puts you down for your belief, also tell you of the problems with atheism? The bad things atheist have done? Republicans tell their stories ignoring that the French Revolution was a nightmare extreme version of the extreme survival of the fittest system that allows uncontrolled aristocracy. Democrats will tell you their doctrines are bulletproof, but they ignore the nightmares of communism. I agree that the Church should confront, discuss, and disprove (if they can) criticisms or mistakes from the past, but the Church would be truly exceptional if it did. Almost every group thinks that the ends justify the means. But I don't think this issue is that extreme.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 6

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 3

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 8

Scriptures that agree

1. 
   
   

Scriptures that disagree

1.  

Interest of those who agree

1. 
   
   

Interest of those who disagree

1.  

Common Interest

1. 
   
   

Opposing Interest

1. 
   
   

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(+3) According to LDS doctrine an uninformed choice is not a valid exercise of agency for which someone is held accountable or rewarded

Reasons to agree

1. 7Thus came the ^avoice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died ^bwithout a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be ^cheirs of the celestial kingdom of God;


2. 8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who^awould have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;


3. 9For I, the Lord, will ^ajudge all men according to their ^bworks, according to the ^cdesire of their hearts.


4. 10 And I also beheld that all ^achildren who die before they arrive at the ^byears of accountability are ^csaved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

Reasons to disagree

1. The LDS Church sort of believes this, but they also tell people they will be held accountable if they choose to be ignorant.  

Scriptures that agree

1. 
   
   

Scriptures that disagree

1.  

Interest of those who agree

1. 
   
   

Interest of those who disagree

1.  

Common Interest

1. 
   
   

Opposing Interest

1. 
   
   

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 4

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 3

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The LDS church is more dishonest about its past than other Churches.

Reasons to agree

1. My mission president told me that Joseph Smith had never consummated any of his relationships outside of his marriage to Emma... this turns out to not be true.


2. Very few members have herd that their are multiple conflicting accounts of the first vision. 


3. A recent pope apologized for the Catholic church's complacency during the Holocaust. 

Reasons to disagree

1.  The Catholic church is not fully transparent about its complacency during the holocaust. 


2. Many Catholic churches have tried to cover up priest that have molested children. 


3. Most southern churches are not honest about their previous support of slavery. 


4. Gordon B. Hinckley dedicated a monument at the location of the mountain meadow massacre. 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 3

# of reasons to disagree: -4

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

Scriptures that agree

1. 
   
   

Scriptures that disagree

1.  

Interest of those who agree

1. 
   
   

Interest of those who disagree

1.  

Common Interest

1. 
   
   

Opposing Interest

1. 
   
   

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Churches should be honest about their past

Reasons to agree

1. It is hypocritical for churches to lie about their past


2. It is hypocritical for churches to cover up their past. 


3. You interfere with someone's agency when you convince them to "choose" something based on incomplete or inaccurate information.


4. A church should not feel good about converting people, if they don't tell them the Truth about their church. 


5. According to LDS doctrine, an uninformed choice is not a valid exercise of agency for which someone is held accountable (and conversely, for which they can be rewarded). 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 5

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 3

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Mormons don't really believe their family will be together forever

Reasons to agree

1. The family is separated for eternity as each is busily involved being the God of their respective worlds. (Some Latter-day Saints may argue they will be able to “visit” each other, but occasional visits hardly constitute being “together forever.”) The cruel reality is that there is no way within the Mormon system for a family to be together forever, not in the sense of being a family unit as it is so commonly portrayed. Because the LDS Church has made God in the image of man, the logical end result within the LDS system is that even in the best-case scenario LDS eternal families will suffer from the same sad realities as earthly families: children grow up, marry, move away, have their own children who grow up, marry and move away, literally worlds apart. In the other scenarios the separation is absolute and eternal as parents and children are relegated to different kingdoms whose borders are forever sealed.

Reasons to disagree

1.  What Mormons believe is that they will be together in the same realm. All the details are not explained, but supposedly it will be pretty good. 

Scriptures that agree

1. 
   
   

Scriptures that disagree

1.  

Interest of those who agree

1. Opposing Mormonism

Interest of those who disagree

1.  Promoting Mormonism

Common Interest

1. Search for truth

Opposing Interest

1.  

Websites that agree:

1. http://irr.org/mit/Mormon_forever_families.html

Websites that disagree:

1. 
   
   

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

Template

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Score:

# of reasons to agree: +0

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0/2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0/2

Total Idea Score: 0

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

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Images

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Webpages



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Podcast



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Unbiased Experts



Unbiased Experts who agree: +

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Best Books

Books that Agree: +

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Related arguments:

Homosexuality is a choice

(+1) If we need help from God anyways to do our family history work back to Adam, then that means the pressure is off of us to do it now

Reasons to agree

1. There is no way we can get all the way back to Adam anyways... and so we are told that some work will have to happen during the millenium... but if we have access to angles and help during the millenium, and people who have died know who their parents and children are, then it should only take about a week or so to get it all done, with all the billions of people that are alive now...

Reasons to disagree

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

LDS church leaders have been more chauvinistic than most other religious leaders of their time (+6)

Reasons to agree: +8

1. LDS church leaders have been more chauvinistic than most other religious leaders of their time. +6


2. Elder Erastus Snow said, in the Journal of Discourses, v.5 p.291 said: "Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? ... No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant."


3. The LDS church has teachings that no other church has, that a wife is supposed obey her husband while her husband obeys the lord. 


4. Polygamy is chauvinistic, no other church has, in the modern western world, allowed polygamy. 


5. Until September 29th, 1978 women were not authorized to give prayers in sacrament meetings. As documented on the Church's website, under "Major Events in President Kimball’s Administration". 


6. It is Chauvinistic to tell women that their place is in the home (+1). The LDS church tells its female members, more than other churches, that their place is in the home as mothers. 


7. Some churches give Women the priesthood. This doesn't prove that the LDS more chovenist than most, but it does prove that the Church (or God if the LDS church is true) is more chauvinistic than those churches that do allow women priests (see Ordination of women on Wikipedia)


8. The LDS church allowed polygamy for Men but not for women. This is pretty chauvinistic, and devalues women. (See Mormonism and Polygamy)


9. It doesn't do any good to say other churches were bad to. The LDS church is an all or nothing sort of thing. The leaders of the LDS church claim to speak to Jesus on a regular basis. They can't claim this, and also go around doing the same stupid things other churches do. 

Reasons to disagree: -3

1. Utah was the 2nd state to allow women to vote, which indicates that, even though some leaders said some stupid things, as a whole the LDS movement is less chauvinistic than average. (Women's suffrage: Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, and Idaho)


2. Mormons believe in a "Mother in Heaven" as a doctrine forces them to have respect for women. (Heavenly Mother, Mormonism).


3. We took very good records of our time, and we are one organization that existed a long time ago. There was no one Methodist church in the same way, a hundred years ago, with similar leaders. But if you would have written down the things they said, perhaps they would have been just as bad. 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 8

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 6

LDS teaching and doctrine are sexist and chauvinistic

Some LDS church leaders use logic to promote their views, not just appeals to their authority

Reasons to agree

1. 
   
   

Reasons to disagree

1. 
   
   

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 13

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Many of the Popes did bad things (+12)

Reasons to agree

1. Pope Alexander VI (1492 - 1503) committed incest with his two sisters and daughter. On October 31, 1501 he conducted the worst ever sex orgy in the Vatican.



2. Pope Paul III (1534 - 1549) as a cardinal fathered three sons and a daughter and sought advice from astrologers.


3. Pope Sergius III (904 - 911) obtained his office by murder


4. Pope Sergius III (904 - 911) fathered several illegitimate children by Marozia


5. Pope John XII (955 - 964) is described in the Catholic encyclopedia as a coarse, immoral man. The Catholic collection of the lives of the Popes, the "Liber Pontificalis" said: "He spent his entire life in adultery." Catholic bishop Luitprand states that "he had no respect for single girls, married woman or widows - they were sure to be defiled by him."


6. Pope Benedict IX (1033 - 1045) committed murders and adulteries in broad daylight, robbed pilgrims, and was regarded as a hideous criminal. The people drove him out of Rome: The Catholic encyclopedia says, "He was a disgrace to the chair of Peter."


7. Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216) promoted the Inquisition


8. Pope Pius II (1458 - 1464) fathered many illegitimate children and taught others to do likewise before he repented.


9. Pope Innocent VII or VIII fathered 16 illegitimate children by various women.


10. Pope Leo X (1513 - 1521) the Catholic encyclopedia says "was possessed by an insatiable love of pleasure, revelry and carousing. Luther visited Rome and said: "No one can imagine what sins and infamous actions are committed in Rome." A saying was: "If there is a hell, Rome is built over it."


11. Pope Stephen VI (896 - 897) brought the dead body of former Pope Formosus (891 - 897) to trial, hacked off his decaying finger and had him dragged through the streets of Rome and thrown into the Tiber river.


12. Pope Eugene IV (1431 - 1447) condemned Joan of Arc to be burned alive as a witch, but Pope Benedict IV (1919) declared her a saint.


13. Jesus said in Matthew 7:18, 20 - "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit ... by their fruits ye shall know them."

Reasons to disagree

1. The majority of the Popes were good men.


2. Their were a lot of Popes, and so of course some of them were bad.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 13

# of reasons to disagree: -2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -12

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This photos is a good way of criticizing the LDS church

Reasons to agree

1. If everybody thinks the same way, someone isn't thinking.

Reasons to disagree

1. The typical debate forum is not set up in such a format that it makes examining truth claims to be a very productive experience.


2. When you get to forums in which real debate is taking place, people get caught up in all the tedious personal attacks, accusations, oversimplification, and false logic that is typical of modern debate. It is a waste of time just hanging out with people that you already agree with, but it can often be a greater waste of time to try to participate in a meaningful debate in the typical online forum.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change