The LDS church is wrong to tell people that "good feelings" are valid reasons to believe the church

Alternative ways to phrase the belief:
  1. The LDS church should not endorse emotional experiences as valid evidence for its truthfulness."
  2. "Relying on 'good feelings' as proof of the LDS church's validity is problematic."
Objective Criteria for Assessing the Validity of this Belief:
  1. Degree to which 'good feelings' can be reliably linked to the truth of a specific doctrine or belief
  2. Prevalence of similar 'good feelings' across different religious or non-religious experiences
  3. The extent to which 'good feelings' are influenced by external factors (e.g., group dynamics, suggestion, expectation)



  1. God probably won't give you more spiritual guidance until you have exhausted the resources you already have access to.

    • Score: 3 (Truth) * 0.7 (Relevance) * 1 (Uniqueness) = 2.1

  2. God won't tell us what is true, until after we have used all our reason, ability to organize information, and logical skills.

    • Score: 3 (Truth) * 0.75 (Relevance) * 0.9 (Uniqueness) = 2.025

  3. Feelings cannot be trusted to verify if a historical fact is true or not.

    • Score: 4 (Truth) * 0.85 (Relevance) * 1 (Uniqueness) = 3.4

  4. It is bad to make important life (or eternal salvation) decisions based primarily on your feelings.

    • Score: 2 (Truth) * 0.8 (Relevance) * 0.8 (Uniqueness) = 1.28

Reasons to disagree: -

  1. Feelings can provide a profound, personal spiritual experience that goes beyond logical reasoning.

    • Score: 3 (Truth) * 0.7 (Relevance) * 1 (Uniqueness) = 2.1

  2. Feelings can serve as a form of personal revelation or spiritual guidance.

    • Score: 2 (Truth) * 0.75 (Relevance) * 0.7 (Uniqueness) = 1.05

  3. Human cognition is not purely rational; feelings and intuition play a crucial role in our decision-making processes.

    • Score: 3 (Truth) * 0.8 (Relevance) * 1 (Uniqueness) = 2.4

  4. Emotionally resonant experiences, such as feeling the Spirit, can be transformative and deeply meaningful, contributing to a sense of purpose, community, and identity.

    • Score: 2 (Truth) * 0.85 (Relevance) * 0.9 (Uniqueness) = 1.53
Scores:
Total score for agreement: 2.1 + 2.025 + 3.4 + 1.28 = 8.805
Total score for disagreement: 2.1 + 1.05 + 2.4 + 1.53 = 7.08
Total conclusion score = 8.805 (Agreement) - 7.08 (Disagreement) = 1.725



Supporting Evidence:
  1. Cognitive biases such as confirmation bias can lead individuals to interpret feelings in a way that confirms pre-existing beliefs.
  2. Empirical studies have demonstrated that feelings and emotions can be influenced by a variety of external factors unrelated to the truth of a belief.
  3. There are many instances, both within religious contexts and in general life situations, where feelings can lead individuals to incorrect conclusions.
  4. Experiencing warm, fuzzy feelings, often cited as the foundation of testimonies in the LDS Church, isn't exclusive to religious contexts. You can get similar feelings when watching fictional movies, which doesn't necessarily indicate truth. This is an example of 'elevation', a well-documented psychological response to witnessing virtuous acts of remarkable moral goodness. It's important to remember that feelings, while meaningful, are not always reliable indicators of factual truth.

Weakening Evidence:

  1. Many religions and spiritual traditions affirm the value of personal spiritual experiences, including feelings, as a source of truth.
  2. Some argue that profound feelings of peace, love, or joy can indicate a connection to a higher truth or power.
  3. While the LDS Church advocates for personal feelings as one method of gaining a testimony, it also encourages other avenues for seeking truth, such as studying scriptures and teachings.



Scriptures that agree: 
  1. Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?"
  2. 1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."




Scriptures that disagree: 
  1. Galatians 5 22 
  2. Moroni 10:4-5 in the Book of Mormon encourages readers to pray to know the truth of the book.


Books that Agree
  1. "Thinking, Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman discusses the fallibility of human judgment and decision-making, including the influence of emotion.
Books that Disagree
  1. "The God Who Weeps: How Mormonism Makes Sense of Life" by Terryl and Fiona Givens discusses the role of personal feelings and experiences in the context of LDS faith.


Images That agree: +

  1. A picture of a brain scan comparing the emotional reactions of someone hearing a fact and someone hearing something that confirms their belief. This could visually demonstrate the idea that feelings can be influenced by confirmation bias.

  2. Political cartoons that satirize the idea of basing beliefs on feelings. For instance, a cartoon showing a character making a significant decision (like purchasing a house) based solely on "good feelings," with disastrous results.


Images That disagree: -

  1. An image or diagram illustrating the process of spiritual revelation as understood by LDS Church doctrine. This could depict the steps of prayer, meditation, receiving a spiritual prompting, and taking action based on that prompting.

  2. Photos of Mormon families or individuals looking happy and content, implying that their faith (based on spiritual feelings) has resulted in a fulfilling life.




Valid Interest of those who agree: +

  1. Skeptics and rationalists - They value logical reasoning and evidence-based decision-making above subjective emotional experiences (Maslow's cognitive needs - Secondary - High validity).

  2. Ex-Mormons or disaffected members - They might have felt misled by their past emotional experiences and value their new perspective (Maslow's esteem needs - Secondary - Moderate validity).

  3. Mental health professionals - They might be interested in promoting emotional health and understand the complexity of human emotions and the dangers of basing decisions solely on feelings (Maslow's safety needs - Primary - High validity).

  4. Non-Mormon religious adherents - They might believe their own religious experiences or doctrines to be more valid or true, and see the LDS focus on feelings as a flawed approach to faith (Maslow's esteem and belongingness needs - Secondary - Moderate validity).

  1. Devout Mormons - They might have a strong emotional connection to their faith and see their feelings as an important part of their spiritual experiences (Maslow's spiritual and belongingness needs - Secondary - High validity).

  2. People who value subjective experiences - They may believe that feelings and personal experiences are valid ways of knowing or perceiving the world (Maslow's cognitive and self-actualization needs - Secondary - High validity).

  3. Certain spiritual leaders or theologians - They might see feelings as a crucial part of connecting with the divine and navigating faith (Maslow's spiritual needs - Secondary - High validity).

  4. Those who had profound emotional experiences tied to their conversion or faith journey - They may see their feelings as a reliable source of truth and direction (Maslow's esteem and self-actualization needs - Secondary - Moderate validity).




Videos That agree: +





Videos That disagree: -



Website that agree: +
  1. Websites like Rational Faiths or MormonThink critically examine LDS teachings and practices.

Websites that disagree: -
  1. Websites like FairMormon or LDS.org affirm the role of personal feelings in gaining a testimony.



Podcast that agree: +
  1. "The Liturgists Podcast" often discusses the interplay of faith, feelings, and doubt.

Podcast that disagree: -
  1. "The LDS Perspectives Podcast" discusses various aspects of LDS doctrine, including personal testimony.



Unbiased Experts who agree: +

  1. Neuroscientists or psychologists who specialize in emotion and cognition might agree with the idea that feelings are not a reliable guide to truth. They might argue that feelings can be easily manipulated and are often based on personal biases and experiences rather than objective facts.

  2. Philosophers who focus on epistemology, the study of knowledge and belief, might also argue that feelings are not a reliable basis for beliefs about truth. They might point to the importance of empirical evidence and logical reasoning in forming reliable beliefs.


Unbiased Experts who disagree: -

  1. Some religious scholars or theologians might argue that feelings can be a valid source of spiritual knowledge or truth. They might point to the long tradition of mysticism and personal revelation in many religions.

  2. Some psychologists might argue that emotions and intuition can play an important role in decision-making and belief formation, even if they shouldn't be the sole basis for these processes.




Common Interest:

  1. Both sides likely value truth and the pursuit of understanding. This shared interest could be a basis for dialogue, with each side recognizing that the other is also trying to understand the world and find truth, even if they have different methods or beliefs.

  2. Both sides likely value community and belonging. They might find common ground in discussing the role that shared beliefs and feelings play in creating a sense of community and identity.


Opposing Interest:

  1. One major obstacle might be different beliefs about the nature of truth and how it can be known. Those who believe that feelings are a valid basis for truth might find it difficult to accept arguments that prioritize empirical evidence and logical reasoning.

  2. There may also be significant emotional obstacles to dialogue and understanding. For example, people who have had powerful emotional experiences that they interpret as spiritual truths may feel dismissed or invalidated by arguments that feelings are not a reliable basis for belief.




Related arguments:
  1. The LDS church is wrong to tell people that "bad feelings" are valid reasons to disbelieve those who criticize the church



# of reasons to agree: +4
# of reasons to disagree: -0
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0
# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0
Total Idea Score: 4

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.




Posted by No comments:

The LDS church is wrong to use uses logical fallacies to keep people in the Church

Reasons the unstated assumptions required to accept or reject this belief (the Church uses logical fallacies) are true.

  1. Straw man: Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a talk in 1985 titled "Reading Church History" where he warns members about "alternate voices" that might present challenging or controversial aspects of Church history. He said, "Alternate voices are usually negative. They specialize in sowing doubts and nurturing grievances. They see only weaknesses and faults and are blind to the inspired accomplishments and miracles that surround them." This could be seen as a straw man argument as it generalizes critics and their concerns. (Source: Elder Dallin H. Oaks, CES Symposium on the Doctrine and Covenants and Church History, 16 Aug. 1985)

  2. Appeal to authority: An example is the teaching that when the prophet speaks, the debate is over. This phrase comes from a 1945 Improvement Era message by President Heber J. Grant, which said, "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan—it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy." (Source: Improvement Era, June 1945, 354)

  3. Begging the question: An example is found in the LDS missionary guide, "Preach My Gospel," which instructs missionaries to encourage investigators to ask God if the Book of Mormon is not true, promising they will receive a confirmation of its truth. This assumes the Book of Mormon is true and that personal spiritual experiences are a reliable test of truth. (Source: "Preach My Gospel," p. 39)

  4. False dilemma: LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley said in General Conference in 2002, "Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing." This statement presents a false dilemma, not allowing for nuance or middle ground in belief. (Source: President Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, April 2003)

Unstated assumptions required to accept/reject this belief:

To Accept:

  1. The LDS church does indeed use logical fallacies to retain members.
  2. Logical fallacies are inherently wrong or harmful.

To Reject:

  1. The LDS church does not use logical fallacies, or if it does, they are not significant in retaining members.
  2. Logical fallacies may be acceptable in certain contexts or for certain ends.

Alternative ways to express this belief could include:
  1. It's inappropriate for the LDS church to use logical fallacies to maintain membership.
  2. The LDS church shouldn't rely on logical fallacies to retain its followers.
  3. Employing logical fallacies as a means to keep followers is not a practice the LDS church should engage in.

Objective Criteria for Assessing the Validity of this Belief:

  1. Evidence of the church employing logical fallacies as a tool to maintain membership.
  2. Statements from the LDS church leadership encouraging the use of logical fallacies.
  3. Accounts of members who felt they were manipulated by logical fallacies.
  4. Peer-reviewed studies or articles discussing the use of logical fallacies in religious retention, specifically in the LDS church.

Reasons to agree: +

  1. The LDS church exploits people by tricking them with the confirmation bias, when they tell people to bear their testimony of things, before they really know it is true. 


    1. Reasons to agree: +


      1. The confirmation bias is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms the hypotheses they have already accepted. A series of experiments in the 1960s suggested that people are biased toward confirming their existing beliefs. Later work re-interpreted these results as a tendency to test ideas in a one-sided way, focusing on one possibility and ignoring alternatives. In certain situations, this tendency can bias people's conclusions. Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. When the Church tells people to "find their testimony in the process of bearing it" they use the confirmation bias, to make people feel good about what they just said. 



  2. The LDS church is wrong to tell people that "good feelings" are valid reasons to believe the church. 

  3. The LDS church is wrong to tell people that "bad feelings" are valid reasons to disbelieve those who criticize the church. People who were raised in the church will naturally experience bad feelings when considering the concept that everything they once believed might be wrong. These feelings are natural to the situation, independently of are going to have good feelings when deciding to stay in the church their parents  friends, and family were are in. These feelings naturally arise from friends, family, and tradition independently of the truthfulness of the church. 





Common or Shared Interests:

  1. Truth and integrity in religious practices.
  2. Fair treatment of individuals within the church community.
  3. The well-being of the LDS church community, despite differing opinions on how to achieve it.

Opposing Interests or Obstacles:

  1. Prioritizing unity and strength within the LDS community over critical examination of retention methods.
  2. Personal and emotional investments in the church that may make objective assessment difficult.
  3. Resistance to acknowledging potential flaws in the church's practices.
  1. Believers may argue that the LDS church uses methods common to many religions to maintain membership, and these methods should not be labeled as "logical fallacies."
  2. They may argue that feelings, both positive and negative, play a crucial role in religious belief and community, and shouldn't be dismissed as invalid.
  3. They might state that focusing on the experiences of those who feel misled ignores the experiences of those who find genuine fulfillment in the church.
Scriptures that agree: +


Scriptures that disagree: -



Images That agree: +

Images That disagree: -


Videos (e.g., movies, YouTube, TikTok) That agree: +
  1. "The Village" - This film illustrates how a community can use fear and misinformation to control its members.
  2. "The Truman Show" - This movie portrays a man's journey of questioning and escaping a manufactured reality.
  3. Ex-Mormon TikTok - A collection of user-generated videos on TikTok discussing personal experiences with leaving the LDS church.

Videos (e.g., movies, YouTube, TikTok) That disagree: -
  1. "God's Army" - A film depicting the struggles and faith of LDS missionaries.
  2. "The Other Side of Heaven" - A movie based on the experiences of an LDS missionary, showing his faith and commitment.
  3. LDS General Conference YouTube Channel - A collection of videos featuring speeches and lessons from LDS General Conference.



Website that agree: +
  1. Recovery from Mormonism - A website providing resources and support for those questioning or leaving the LDS church.
  2. The CES Letter - A document outlining many criticisms of LDS doctrine and history.

Websites that disagree: -
  1. FairMormon - A website dedicated to defending the LDS faith against criticisms.
  2. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Official Site - The official website of the LDS church, providing doctrinal teachings and resources.



Podcast that agree: +
  1. "Mormon Stories" - A podcast featuring interviews with individuals about their experiences in the LDS church.
  2. "The CES Letter Podcast" - A podcast delving into the contents of the CES Letter and criticisms of the LDS church.

Podcast that disagree: -
  1. "The Daily" by the LDS church - A podcast featuring daily spiritual teachings and insights from LDS leaders.
  2. "FairMormon Podcast" - A podcast that addresses criticisms of the LDS church.



Unbiased Experts who agree: +
  1. Steven Hassan - A mental health professional specializing in cult behavior and mind control techniques.
  2. Robert Jay Lifton - A psychiatrist known for his studies on the psychological causes and effects of war and political violence, and for his theory of thought reform.

Unbiased Experts who disagree: -
  1. Terryl Givens - A well-known LDS apologist and scholar of religion and literature.
  2. Richard L. Bushman - A prominent historian and member of the LDS church.

Benefits/Costs:

Benefits of Agreement:

  1. Psychological Freedom: Agreeing with the notion that the LDS church uses logical fallacies to retain members can potentially lead to psychological freedom. The awareness and understanding of such tactics may help individuals exercise their free will and make informed decisions.

  2. Intellectual Growth: The process of questioning, analyzing, and evaluating these tactics can stimulate intellectual growth and critical thinking.

  3. Authenticity: Acknowledging these tactics could lead to a more authentic faith journey, as it encourages individuals to seek truth based on reliable evidence and personal conviction, rather than emotional manipulation or logical fallacies.

Costs of Agreement:

  1. Potential for Disillusionment: Disagreeing with the idea that the LDS church uses logical fallacies could lead to feelings of disillusionment or betrayal if an individual later realizes these tactics are being used. This could result in emotional turmoil.

  2. Relationship Strain: Disagreeing with this belief could potentially strain relationships with family and friends who accept that the church uses such tactics. This could lead to social exclusion, loss of community, or familial tension.

  3. Loss of Familiar Framework: The LDS Church, like many religious institutions, provides a moral framework, community, and sense of purpose. Ignoring or denying the church's use of logical fallacies might prevent an individual from critically examining their moral and ethical outlook.

Common Interest:

  1. Pursuit of Truth: Both sides are likely interested in the pursuit of truth, though they may have different views on how to best achieve this.

  2. Respect for Religious Freedom: Both sides likely value religious freedom, including the right to critically examine one's beliefs and the teachings of one's religious institution.


Opposing Interest:

  1. Interpretation of Evidence: Those who agree that the LDS Church uses logical fallacies may desire to examine and discuss evidence that supports this view, while those who disagree may resist or reject the same evidence.

  2. Value of Faith Versus Skepticism: Those in agreement might value skepticism and critical thinking over faith when it comes to religious beliefs, whereas those in disagreement might prioritize faith.

The most promising strategies to foster dialogue and mutual respect, highlight logical fallacies, and guide all participants toward the truth

  1. Education: Encourage everyone to learn about logical fallacies and how they are used in discourse. This can be done through workshops, seminars, or even online courses. Highlighting the importance of critical thinking skills and logical reasoning in everyday decision-making can also help.

  2. Open Dialogue: Establish platforms where open and respectful conversations can take place. This might be a physical meeting or an online forum. The key is to ensure that everyone feels heard and that their perspectives are respected.

  3. Neutral Facilitators: Employ neutral facilitators in discussions to ensure the conversation remains balanced and fair. These individuals can help keep the discussion on track, mediate disputes, and help participants recognize when a logical fallacy has been used.

  4. Constructive Criticism: Encourage the practice of constructive criticism, where logical fallacies can be pointed out not as a personal attack, but as a means to improve one's argument and understanding.

  5. Transparency: Encourage transparency in discussions, particularly where religious beliefs are concerned. This can involve acknowledging biases and being open about the sources of information.

  6. Promote Empathy: Foster an environment that promotes empathy and understanding. Encourage participants to consider the perspectives of others, even when they disagree. This can help to decrease hostility and increase respect among differing viewpoints.

  7. Use of Evidence-Based Arguments: Promote the use of evidence-based arguments in discussions. This can help to shift the focus from subjective feelings or beliefs to a more objective assessment of the facts.


Posted by No comments:

The LDS Church supports a black and white view that everyone who is not with the Church is an enemy of Good




Reasons to agree: +




  1. The LDS Church supports an unhealthy black and white view of the world. (+3)




Reasons to disagree: -




Scriptures that agree: +


Scriptures that disagree: -



Images That agree: +

Images That disagree: -



Valid Interest of those who agree: +

Valid Interest of those who disagree: -





Videos That agree: +

Videos That disagree: -



Website that agree: +

Websites that disagree: -



Podcast that agree: +

Podcast that disagree: -



Unbiased Experts who agree: +

Unbiased Experts who disagree: -








# of reasons to agree: +0


# of reasons to disagree: -0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0


Total Idea Score: 0





Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.





Common Interest:

Opposing Interest:



Related arguments:




Posted by No comments:

Mormon prophets disagree




Reasons to agree: +




  1. Brigham Young taught that Adam was God the Father. Other Prophets don't.

  2. Early prophets of the Church said that the Church would never give up Polygamy, but they did.




Reasons to disagree: -




Scriptures that agree: +


Scriptures that disagree: -



Images That agree: +

Images That disagree: -



Valid Interest of those who agree: +

Valid Interest of those who disagree: -





Videos That agree: +

Videos That disagree: -



Website that agree: +

Websites that disagree: -



Podcast that agree: +

Podcast that disagree: -








# of reasons to agree: +0


# of reasons to disagree: -0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0


Total Idea Score: 0








Common Interest:

Opposing Interest:



Related arguments:



Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change


Posted by No comments:
Labels:
Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)