- Gen.1:27 says that man was created equal, male and female, however Gen.2:18-24 says that woman was created as a companion to the man only after he rejected the animals.
Transforming Debate for Inclusive and Impactful Participation Objective: To empower thousands—or even millions—to contribute meaningfully to debates by leveraging structured organization and robust evaluation criteria. Together, we can ensure every voice is heard and every idea is thoughtfully considered.
Saying the Old Testament "support something" is meaningless, because so many Old Scriptures contradict each other
God could have changed the DNA of native Americans to test the faith of Mormons
Belief: "God could have changed the DNA of Native Americans to test the faith of Mormons" (This argument makes arguments pointless because once you say your book isn't wrong, God is just testing your faith, then you can use that same logic to justify anything).
Background:
The Book of Mormon originally claimed to be written for the remnant of the Nephites and Lamanites, describing them as the descendants of the House of Israel, specifically from the time of the prophet Jeremiah (circa 600 BCE). According to the text, Lehi and his family—who were of Middle Eastern descent—migrated to the Americas and became the ancestors of Native American peoples.
For decades, LDS leaders and scholars reaffirmed this belief, teaching that the indigenous peoples of the Americas were the direct descendants of these Israelite migrants. However, modern DNA analysis of Native American populations has found no genetic link between Native Americans and the Middle East. Instead, genetic studies overwhelmingly show that the ancestors of Native Americans migrated from Siberia and Northeast Asia, contradicting the claims of the Book of Mormon and previous LDS doctrinal interpretations.
This scientific evidence has led some Mormon apologists to propose alternative explanations, including the claim that "God could have changed the DNA of Native Americans to test the faith of Mormons." This argument suggests that God may have altered the genetic markers to obscure the Israelite ancestry, requiring believers to rely on faith rather than empirical evidence.
Reasons to agree (but ultimately refuted):
Divine Omnipotence and Testing Faith
Claim: God has the power to alter physical evidence, including DNA, as a test of faith.
Flaw: This line of reasoning could be used to justify any contradiction between religious claims and empirical evidence, or even between different empirical claims. If accepted, it removes any requirement for evidence-based belief and allows for infinite ad hoc explanations, and worse of all makes any discussion pointless, because people will just believe whatever they want, without any claim to consistency, that any criticisms of your claim are invalid. After all, God is just testing you).
Purpose of Faith Beyond Empirical Evidence
Claim: Faith requires belief without direct empirical proof, and scientific discrepancies can strengthen religious conviction.
Flaw: If God intentionally deceives people by altering DNA evidence, it undermines the principle of divine honesty and trustworthiness. Faith should be about choosing to believe, not about being misled by manipulated evidence. It's one thing to say that you have faith. It is another thing to claim that God manipulates DNA to make faith harder.
Historical Precedents of Divine Testing
Claim: Scripture recounts instances, where God tested individuals' faith, so altering DNA, could be a modern example.
Flaw: Previous divine tests involved moral and spiritual challenges, not scientific deception. There is no precedent for God falsifying physical evidence to mislead believers.
Encouraging Deeper Spiritual Reflection
Claim: Confronting contradictions forces believers to engage in deeper spiritual introspection.
Flaw: Genuine spiritual growth should be based on seeking truth, not rationalizing contradictions through speculative supernatural intervention.
Divine Omnipotence and Testing Faith
Claim: God has the power to alter physical evidence, including DNA, as a test of faith.
Flaw: This line of reasoning could be used to justify any contradiction between religious claims and empirical evidence, or even between different empirical claims. If accepted, it removes any requirement for evidence-based belief and allows for infinite ad hoc explanations, and worse of all makes any discussion pointless, because people will just believe whatever they want, without any claim to consistency, that any criticisms of your claim are invalid. After all, God is just testing you).
Purpose of Faith Beyond Empirical Evidence
Claim: Faith requires belief without direct empirical proof, and scientific discrepancies can strengthen religious conviction.
Flaw: If God intentionally deceives people by altering DNA evidence, it undermines the principle of divine honesty and trustworthiness. Faith should be about choosing to believe, not about being misled by manipulated evidence. It's one thing to say that you have faith. It is another thing to claim that God manipulates DNA to make faith harder.
Historical Precedents of Divine Testing
Claim: Scripture recounts instances, where God tested individuals' faith, so altering DNA, could be a modern example.
Flaw: Previous divine tests involved moral and spiritual challenges, not scientific deception. There is no precedent for God falsifying physical evidence to mislead believers.
Encouraging Deeper Spiritual Reflection
Claim: Confronting contradictions forces believers to engage in deeper spiritual introspection.
Flaw: Genuine spiritual growth should be based on seeking truth, not rationalizing contradictions through speculative supernatural intervention.
Reasons to disagree (Valid Counterarguments):
Science and Faith Should Not Be at Odds
If God created a logical, orderly universe, then scientific findings should align with truth rather than be intentionally deceptive.
Accepting the argument that "God changed DNA to test faith" removes all accountability for truth claims.
Theological Integrity Requires Honest Evidence
If religious claims are true, they should not require speculative justifications that contradict observable reality.
Rational faith should be based on principles that encourage honest inquiry rather than dismissal of evidence.
The Dangers of Justifying Anything
If one accepts that "God changed DNA to test faith," then any contradiction between religious texts and evidence can be dismissed with the same argument.
This reasoning could be used to reject any scientific discovery, historical fact, or contradictory claim without accountability.
Consistency in Apologetics
The argument that "God alters evidence to test faith" is rarely applied to other religious claims. If this logic is valid, it would allow competing religions to justify any discrepancy in their own historical records.
Faith should be strong enough to reconcile evidence with belief rather than requiring the dismissal of inconvenient facts.
Science and Faith Should Not Be at Odds
If God created a logical, orderly universe, then scientific findings should align with truth rather than be intentionally deceptive.
Accepting the argument that "God changed DNA to test faith" removes all accountability for truth claims.
Theological Integrity Requires Honest Evidence
If religious claims are true, they should not require speculative justifications that contradict observable reality.
Rational faith should be based on principles that encourage honest inquiry rather than dismissal of evidence.
The Dangers of Justifying Anything
If one accepts that "God changed DNA to test faith," then any contradiction between religious texts and evidence can be dismissed with the same argument.
This reasoning could be used to reject any scientific discovery, historical fact, or contradictory claim without accountability.
Consistency in Apologetics
The argument that "God alters evidence to test faith" is rarely applied to other religious claims. If this logic is valid, it would allow competing religions to justify any discrepancy in their own historical records.
Faith should be strong enough to reconcile evidence with belief rather than requiring the dismissal of inconvenient facts.
Interest/Motivation of those who agree:
✔️ Mormons and other believers seeking to reconcile scientific challenges with their faith.
✔️ Apologists defending religious claims against empirical contradictions.
✔️ Those who view faith as independent of or superior to scientific evidence.
Interest/Motivation of those who disagree:
✔️ Advocates for the compatibility of faith and reason.
✔️ Scientists and historians prioritize evidence-based conclusions.
✔️ Religious thinkers who believe faith should not rely on speculative supernatural interventions.
Best Solutions to Related Problems:
✔️ Encouraging honest theological inquiry—examining religious claims in light of evidence rather than defending contradictions with unverifiable speculation.
✔️ Accepting that scripture may contain metaphorical or allegorical elements—allowing for reinterpretation rather than rigid literalism.
✔️ Separating faith from empirical science—acknowledging that religious belief does not require rejecting scientific discoveries.
✔️ Emphasizing moral and spiritual truths over historical details—focusing on ethical teachings rather than attempting to defend problematic historical claims.
Unstated Assumptions of Those Who Agree:
❗ That God would deliberately deceptively alter physical evidence.
❗ That faith requires resisting rather than embracing the truth.
❗ That discrepancies between scripture and science must be explained rather than reconsidered.
❗ That human interpretation of religious texts is infallible.
Evidence Scores:
๐ DNA studies showing Native Americans' genetic origins trace to Asia, not the Middle East.
๐ Historical research on migration patterns contradicting the Book of Mormon's claims.
๐ Theological analysis questioning whether God would alter evidence to mislead believers.
Most Likely Benefits of Rejecting This Argument:
✔️ A stronger, evidence-based faith that embraces truth rather than rejecting it.
✔️ Greater intellectual honesty in religious discourse.
✔️ A more credible and defensible religious belief system.
✔️ Improved dialogue between religious and scientific communities.
Books that agree (refuting the argument):
๐ Faith and Reason – Richard Swinburne (on reconciling faith with evidence)
๐ Losing a Lost Tribe – Simon Southerton (on DNA and the Book of Mormon)
๐ The Demon-Haunted World – Carl Sagan (on avoiding pseudoscience in religious beliefs)
Books that disagree (defending the argument):
๐ Shaken Faith Syndrome – Michael R. Ash (on why evidence challenges faith and how to respond)
๐ Echoes and Evidence of the Book of Mormon – Donald W. Parry (attempts to defend faith-based claims against the evidence)
Conclusion:
✔️ The claim that "God could have changed the DNA of Native Americans to test the faith of Mormons" is an invalid argument that relies on speculative reasoning.
✔️ If accepted, this logic can be used to justify any contradiction between religious beliefs and evidence.
✔️ A stronger approach is to engage with evidence honestly and develop a faith that does not rely on rejecting scientific findings.
✔️ Encouraging intellectual humility and theological adaptation allows faith to coexist with reason rather than being at odds with it.
DNA analysis proves that Native Americans are not descendants of Israel
Reasons to Agree:
Genetic Markers Indicate Asian Ancestry: Scientists have analyzed the genetic markers of all living Native Americans, and none carry markers consistent with people from the Middle East. Instead, Native American genetic markers align with those from the Altay Mountains region of Central Asia.
Scientific Consensus on Genetic Testing: DNA analysis is a reliable method for tracing ancestry, and no peer-reviewed genetic research supports a Middle Eastern origin for Native Americans.
Theological Implications of DNA Alteration: If God altered DNA to hide evidence of a sacred book, it contradicts the idea of a God of Truth. A deity who deceives is not worthy of worship and would cease to be God.
Faith-Based Argument:
Score Analysis:
# of Reasons to Agree: 3
# of Reasons to Disagree: 1
# of Reasons to Agree with Reasons to Agree: 0
# of Reasons to Disagree with Reasons to Agree: 0
Total Idea Score: Pending evaluation of individual argument scores.
- Promoting their book (Simon G. Southerton)
- Promoting the truth
- Promoting their career (Apologist)
- Promoting the truth
Common Interest
- Promoting the truth
- Promoting the truth
- Promoting the Church
- Promoting gospel narratives that don't seem to contradict scientific based world views

Native American Indians are not descendants of Israel
Reasons to Agree:
Reasons to Disagree:
Faith-Based Argument: Some believe that God could have changed the DNA of Native Americans to test the faith of Mormons.
Score Analysis:
# of Reasons to Agree: 3
# of Reasons to Disagree: 1
# of Reasons to Agree with Reasons to Agree: 0
# of Reasons to Disagree with Reasons to Agree: 0
Total Idea Score: Pending evaluation of individual argument scores.
Supporting Evidence:
Books That Agree:
Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church – Simon G. Southerton (More Books)
Scriptures That Agree: None identified.
Scriptures That Disagree: None identified.
Legal References That Agree:
Local, Federal, and International Laws
Interests and Motivations:
Interest of Those Who Agree:
Promoting their book (Simon G. Southerton)
Promoting scientific accuracy and truth
Interest of Those Who Disagree:
Promoting their careers as religious apologists
Defending religious beliefs and faith-based narratives
Common Interests:
Seeking and promoting the truth
Opposing Interests:
Defending institutional religious narratives
Reconciling religious faith with scientific evidence
Media That Supports the Idea:
Websites That Agree:
Websites That Disagree:
Multimedia Analysis:
Images That Support the Idea:
Supporting ImagesVideos That Support the Idea:
Supporting VideosSongs That Support the Idea:
Supporting Songs
Potential Benefits of Accepting This Idea:
Increased acceptance of scientific evidence in religious discussions.
Improved understanding of Native American ancestry and history.
Encouragement of open dialogue between science and religion.
Conclusion:
If you disagree with the score or analysis, you can contribute by posting additional reasons to agree or disagree. Each contribution will affect the total idea score, ensuring a dynamic and community-driven evaluation process.
It is a problem for the Mormon Church that the Book of Mormon Says That the Jews Are the Principal Ancestors of the American Indians.
Reasons to Agree:
Book of Mormon Introduction Statement: The introduction to the Book of Mormon states: "Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel."
Historical Teachings of the LDS Church: Many past statements from LDS Church leaders, including Joseph Smith and early church authorities, affirmed that Native Americans were direct descendants of the Jews.
Scriptural Support in the Book of Mormon: Various passages in the Book of Mormon (e.g., 2 Nephi 3:3, Alma 10:3) describe the Lamanites as being of the house of Israel, reinforcing the claim of Jewish ancestry.
Reasons to Disagree:
Modern DNA Evidence: Genetic studies have consistently shown that Native American populations trace ancestry back to Central and East Asia rather than the Middle East. See Wikipedia - Genetics and the Book of Mormon.
LDS Church Cover-Up and Revisionism: The introduction to the Book of Mormon was revised in 2006, changing "principal ancestors" to "among the ancestors," demonstrating an Orwellian attempt to rewrite history while maintaining claims of prophetic infallibility.
Infallibility vs. Changing Doctrine: LDS leaders claim to speak directly to God and declare the Book of Mormon the most correct book ever written. However, historical revisions and doctrinal shifts suggest a pattern of altering past claims while insisting on prophetic authority.
Parallel to Political Rewriting of History: Just as political scandals (e.g., Whitewater, Trump's January 6th justifications) involve covering up mistakes while asserting authority, the LDS leadership similarly revises past teachings while maintaining claims of infallibility.
Score Analysis:
# of Reasons to Agree: 3
# of Reasons to Disagree: 4
# of Reasons to Agree with Reasons to Agree: 0
# of Reasons to Disagree with Reasons to Agree: 0
Total Idea Score: 3-4=-1
Supporting Evidence:
Books That Agree:
The Book of Mormon – Joseph Smith (More Books)
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith – Compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith
Books That Disagree:
Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church – Simon G. Southerton
An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins – Grant H. Palmer
Legal References That Agree: Local, Federal, and International Laws
Fraud: Lying to obtain financial or personal gain can result in criminal charges, such as wire fraud, tax fraud, and securities fraud. The LDS church lies to its members, hides its past mistakes, and still claims to be infallible, requiring members in good faith to pay 10% of their income to the church, which is built on lies.
False Advertising: Companies can be sued for misleading consumers about products or services.
Interests and Motivations:
The interest of Those Who Agree:
Exposing historical and doctrinal revisions
Promoting scientific and genetic research
Advocating historical accuracy in religious narratives
The interest of Those Who Disagree:
Defending traditional LDS teachings
Upholding religious faith in the Book of Mormon
Common Interests:
Seeking and promoting truth
Opposing Interests:
Defending faith-based interpretations vs. scientific evidence
Maintaining institutional credibility
Media That Supports the Idea:
Websites That Agree:
Websites That Disagree:
Multimedia Analysis:
Images That Support the Idea:
Supporting Images
Videos That Support the Idea:
Does DNA Evidence prove the Book of Mormon is false? https://youtu.be/-yZ7WEfPOx8
Songs That Support the Idea:
Supporting Songs
Images That Support the Idea: Supporting Images
Videos That Support the Idea:
Does DNA Evidence prove the Book of Mormon is false? https://youtu.be/-yZ7WEfPOx8
Songs That Support the Idea: Supporting Songs
Potential Benefits of Accepting This Idea:
Greater understanding of LDS doctrine and its evolution over time.
Improved reconciliation between religious faith and scientific findings.
Encouragement of open dialogue between faith communities and academia.
Increased awareness of institutional revisionism and historical accuracy.
Conclusion:
If you disagree with the score or analysis, you can contribute by posting additional reasons to agree or disagree. Each contribution will affect the total idea score, ensuring a dynamic and community-driven evaluation process.
It is Chauvinistic to tell women that their place is in the home as Moms
Reasons to agree:
- If it is a woman telling another woman that being a stay at home mom was better than they expected, from her personal experience, it could be OK. But trying to make a blanket statement that you try applying to all women, devalues them as individuals (at least the ones that don't want to fit that mold).
A man will get nearer to God by abiding by the Book of Mormon's precepts than by any other book -1
- The New Testament will get you closer to God than the Book of Mormon.
# of reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to disagree: -1
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0
# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0
Total Idea Score: -1
Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change
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Scriptures that disagree: -