Churches should be honest about their past

Reasons to agree

1. It is hypocritical for churches to lie about their past


2. It is hypocritical for churches to cover up their past. 


3. You interfere with someone's agency when you convince them to "choose" something based on incomplete or inaccurate information.


4. A church should not feel good about converting people, if they don't tell them the Truth about their church. 


5. According to LDS doctrine, an uninformed choice is not a valid exercise of agency for which someone is held accountable (and conversely, for which they can be rewarded). 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 5

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 3

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Mormons don't really believe their family will be together forever

Reasons to agree

1. The family is separated for eternity as each is busily involved being the God of their respective worlds. (Some Latter-day Saints may argue they will be able to “visit” each other, but occasional visits hardly constitute being “together forever.”) The cruel reality is that there is no way within the Mormon system for a family to be together forever, not in the sense of being a family unit as it is so commonly portrayed. Because the LDS Church has made God in the image of man, the logical end result within the LDS system is that even in the best-case scenario LDS eternal families will suffer from the same sad realities as earthly families: children grow up, marry, move away, have their own children who grow up, marry and move away, literally worlds apart. In the other scenarios the separation is absolute and eternal as parents and children are relegated to different kingdoms whose borders are forever sealed.

Reasons to disagree

1.  What Mormons believe is that they will be together in the same realm. All the details are not explained, but supposedly it will be pretty good. 

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Scriptures that disagree

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Interest of those who agree

1. Opposing Mormonism

Interest of those who disagree

1.  Promoting Mormonism

Common Interest

1. Search for truth

Opposing Interest

1.  

Websites that agree:

1. http://irr.org/mit/Mormon_forever_families.html

Websites that disagree:

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Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 0

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Related arguments:

Homosexuality is a choice

(+1) If we need help from God anyways to do our family history work back to Adam, then that means the pressure is off of us to do it now

Reasons to agree

1. There is no way we can get all the way back to Adam anyways... and so we are told that some work will have to happen during the millenium... but if we have access to angles and help during the millenium, and people who have died know who their parents and children are, then it should only take about a week or so to get it all done, with all the billions of people that are alive now...

Reasons to disagree

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -0

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 1

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LDS church leaders have been more chauvinistic than most other religious leaders of their time (+6)

Reasons to agree: +8

1. LDS church leaders have been more chauvinistic than most other religious leaders of their time. +6


2. Elder Erastus Snow said, in the Journal of Discourses, v.5 p.291 said: "Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? ... No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant."


3. The LDS church has teachings that no other church has, that a wife is supposed obey her husband while her husband obeys the lord. 


4. Polygamy is chauvinistic, no other church has, in the modern western world, allowed polygamy. 


5. Until September 29th, 1978 women were not authorized to give prayers in sacrament meetings. As documented on the Church's website, under "Major Events in President Kimball’s Administration". 


6. It is Chauvinistic to tell women that their place is in the home (+1). The LDS church tells its female members, more than other churches, that their place is in the home as mothers. 


7. Some churches give Women the priesthood. This doesn't prove that the LDS more chovenist than most, but it does prove that the Church (or God if the LDS church is true) is more chauvinistic than those churches that do allow women priests (see Ordination of women on Wikipedia)


8. The LDS church allowed polygamy for Men but not for women. This is pretty chauvinistic, and devalues women. (See Mormonism and Polygamy)


9. It doesn't do any good to say other churches were bad to. The LDS church is an all or nothing sort of thing. The leaders of the LDS church claim to speak to Jesus on a regular basis. They can't claim this, and also go around doing the same stupid things other churches do. 

Reasons to disagree: -3

1. Utah was the 2nd state to allow women to vote, which indicates that, even though some leaders said some stupid things, as a whole the LDS movement is less chauvinistic than average. (Women's suffrage: Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, and Idaho)


2. Mormons believe in a "Mother in Heaven" as a doctrine forces them to have respect for women. (Heavenly Mother, Mormonism).


3. We took very good records of our time, and we are one organization that existed a long time ago. There was no one Methodist church in the same way, a hundred years ago, with similar leaders. But if you would have written down the things they said, perhaps they would have been just as bad. 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 8

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 6

LDS teaching and doctrine are sexist and chauvinistic

Some LDS church leaders use logic to promote their views, not just appeals to their authority

Reasons to agree

1. 
   
   

Reasons to disagree

1. 
   
   

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 13

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

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