LDS church leaders have been more chauvinistic than most other religious leaders of their time (+6)

Reasons to agree: +8

1. LDS church leaders have been more chauvinistic than most other religious leaders of their time. +6


2. Elder Erastus Snow said, in the Journal of Discourses, v.5 p.291 said: "Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? ... No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant."


3. The LDS church has teachings that no other church has, that a wife is supposed obey her husband while her husband obeys the lord. 


4. Polygamy is chauvinistic, no other church has, in the modern western world, allowed polygamy. 


5. Until September 29th, 1978 women were not authorized to give prayers in sacrament meetings. As documented on the Church's website, under "Major Events in President Kimball’s Administration". 


6. It is Chauvinistic to tell women that their place is in the home (+1). The LDS church tells its female members, more than other churches, that their place is in the home as mothers. 


7. Some churches give Women the priesthood. This doesn't prove that the LDS more chovenist than most, but it does prove that the Church (or God if the LDS church is true) is more chauvinistic than those churches that do allow women priests (see Ordination of women on Wikipedia)


8. The LDS church allowed polygamy for Men but not for women. This is pretty chauvinistic, and devalues women. (See Mormonism and Polygamy)


9. It doesn't do any good to say other churches were bad to. The LDS church is an all or nothing sort of thing. The leaders of the LDS church claim to speak to Jesus on a regular basis. They can't claim this, and also go around doing the same stupid things other churches do. 

Reasons to disagree: -3

1. Utah was the 2nd state to allow women to vote, which indicates that, even though some leaders said some stupid things, as a whole the LDS movement is less chauvinistic than average. (Women's suffrage: Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, and Idaho)


2. Mormons believe in a "Mother in Heaven" as a doctrine forces them to have respect for women. (Heavenly Mother, Mormonism).


3. We took very good records of our time, and we are one organization that existed a long time ago. There was no one Methodist church in the same way, a hundred years ago, with similar leaders. But if you would have written down the things they said, perhaps they would have been just as bad. 

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 8

# of reasons to disagree: -3

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: 6

LDS teaching and doctrine are sexist and chauvinistic

Some LDS church leaders use logic to promote their views, not just appeals to their authority

Reasons to agree

1. 
   
   

Reasons to disagree

1. 
   
   

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 13

# of reasons to disagree: -1

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

Many of the Popes did bad things (+12)

Reasons to agree

1. Pope Alexander VI (1492 - 1503) committed incest with his two sisters and daughter. On October 31, 1501 he conducted the worst ever sex orgy in the Vatican.



2. Pope Paul III (1534 - 1549) as a cardinal fathered three sons and a daughter and sought advice from astrologers.


3. Pope Sergius III (904 - 911) obtained his office by murder


4. Pope Sergius III (904 - 911) fathered several illegitimate children by Marozia


5. Pope John XII (955 - 964) is described in the Catholic encyclopedia as a coarse, immoral man. The Catholic collection of the lives of the Popes, the "Liber Pontificalis" said: "He spent his entire life in adultery." Catholic bishop Luitprand states that "he had no respect for single girls, married woman or widows - they were sure to be defiled by him."


6. Pope Benedict IX (1033 - 1045) committed murders and adulteries in broad daylight, robbed pilgrims, and was regarded as a hideous criminal. The people drove him out of Rome: The Catholic encyclopedia says, "He was a disgrace to the chair of Peter."


7. Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216) promoted the Inquisition


8. Pope Pius II (1458 - 1464) fathered many illegitimate children and taught others to do likewise before he repented.


9. Pope Innocent VII or VIII fathered 16 illegitimate children by various women.


10. Pope Leo X (1513 - 1521) the Catholic encyclopedia says "was possessed by an insatiable love of pleasure, revelry and carousing. Luther visited Rome and said: "No one can imagine what sins and infamous actions are committed in Rome." A saying was: "If there is a hell, Rome is built over it."


11. Pope Stephen VI (896 - 897) brought the dead body of former Pope Formosus (891 - 897) to trial, hacked off his decaying finger and had him dragged through the streets of Rome and thrown into the Tiber river.


12. Pope Eugene IV (1431 - 1447) condemned Joan of Arc to be burned alive as a witch, but Pope Benedict IV (1919) declared her a saint.


13. Jesus said in Matthew 7:18, 20 - "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit ... by their fruits ye shall know them."

Reasons to disagree

1. The majority of the Popes were good men.


2. Their were a lot of Popes, and so of course some of them were bad.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 13

# of reasons to disagree: -2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -12

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.

This photos is a good way of criticizing the LDS church

Reasons to agree

1. If everybody thinks the same way, someone isn't thinking.

Reasons to disagree

1. The typical debate forum is not set up in such a format that it makes examining truth claims to be a very productive experience.


2. When you get to forums in which real debate is taking place, people get caught up in all the tedious personal attacks, accusations, oversimplification, and false logic that is typical of modern debate. It is a waste of time just hanging out with people that you already agree with, but it can often be a greater waste of time to try to participate in a meaningful debate in the typical online forum.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change

The ClearStream2™ from Antennas Direct is a good deal

Reasons to agree:	Reasons to disagree:
For $150 you can get local channels. The cable company will charge you $5 a month for this.  A 1 year pay back is good, and you don't have to pay for all the other stuff. [Submit a reason]    (Reason score: )	[Submit a reason]    (Reason score: )
R2A (+): __           R2AA (+): __          R2DA(-): __	R2A (+): __           R2AA (+): __          R2DA(-): __

Most probable interest of those who agree:	Most probable interest of those who disagree:

Books that can be said to agree:	Books that can be said to disagree

People that agree:	People that disagree:

Webpages that agree:	Webpages that disagree:

Values that agree:	Values that disagree:

It is nerdy to analyze issues with this much detail.

The current price to buy stock in this belief is $0.95 per share

The Idea Stock Exchange score for this idea is: +3-1=2

The percent that agree is: 92%

Some interest are more valid than others

Reasons to agree

1. The desire for financial security is valid, as long as it is not applied in your life in such a way to cause you to disrespect other people's rights.
2. In a just society those who act on valid interest do not commit crimes. The more severe the punishment the less valid the interest. In any society the interest of criminals are not considered valid, when actions resulting from their interest, result in illegal behavior. In these situations, they may be guided by valid interest, however the application of their interest, by perhaps overriding other's interest, results in criminal activity.
3. For the purposes of this website, viewing things on a whole, the desire for great wealth, would be less valid than mere financial security, because the desire for great wealth, more more likely be used as a motivation to break more laws, than mere financial security.
4. All of this is relative, and semantic, but that does not mean we should throw our hands up in the air, and say all motivations are equal. The desire to rape and kill is not seen as a valid in any society, and if we are going to ever make progress in determining the validity of any position, we have to make progress in determining the reasons, and boundaries that start to make valid interest less valid.

We should only participate in discussion groups with members with diverse opinions.

Reasons to agree

1. If everybody thinks the same way, someone isn't thinking.

Reasons to disagree

1. The typical debate forum is not set up in such a format that it makes examining truth claims to be a very productive experience.
2. When you get to forums in which real debate is taking place, people get caught up in all the tedious personal attacks, accusations, oversimplification, and false logic that is typical of modern debate. It is a waste of time just hanging out with people that you already agree with, but it can often be a greater waste of time to try to participate in a meaningful debate in the typical online forum.

Score:

# of reasons to agree: 1

# of reasons to disagree: -2

# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0

# of reasons to disagree with reasons to agree: 0

Total Idea Score: -1

Don't like the score? It is easy to change the score. Just post a reason to agree or disagree with the overall idea, or any of the reasons and the score will change.