Mormon prophets disagree




Reasons to agree: +




  1. Brigham Young taught that Adam was God the Father. Other Prophets don't.

  2. Early prophets of the Church said that the Church would never give up Polygamy, but they did.




Reasons to disagree: -




Scriptures that agree: +


Scriptures that disagree: -



Images That agree: +

Images That disagree: -



Valid Interest of those who agree: +

Valid Interest of those who disagree: -





Videos That agree: +

Videos That disagree: -



Website that agree: +

Websites that disagree: -



Podcast that agree: +

Podcast that disagree: -








# of reasons to agree: +0


# of reasons to disagree: -0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: +0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0


Total Idea Score: 0








Common Interest:

Opposing Interest:



Related arguments:



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The Book of Mormon couldn't have been written without the help of God.

  1. It is hard to produce a totally unique, consistent story with solid spiritual beliefs that inspire people.
  2. The Book of Mormon is very helpful to millions of people.
  3. The Book of Mormon is relevant today. -1
  4. The fact that there are many similarities between modern gangs and the Gadianton Robbers contributes to the belief that the Book of Mormon is relevant today.
Reasons to agree: -2
  1. Most of the relevant parts in the BOM are copied from the Bible
  2. Most of the war stories in the BOM have very limited application to modern-day life.

# of reasons to agree: +4
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: -1
Total: 3
  1. Smith had lots of help on the BOM. First from his wife. Then Oliver Cowdry 
  2. The BOM is not a totally unique story +13
    1. Reasons to agree: +1
      1. There are many similarities between the BOM and View of the Hebrews by Ethan Smith: +13
        1. Reasons to agree: +12

          1. both have extensive quotations from the prophecies of Isaiah in the Old Testament; 

          2. Both have the Israelite origin of the American Indian; 

          3. Both have the future gathering of Israel and restoration of the Ten Lost Tribes; 

          4. Both have the peopling of the New World from the Old via a long journey northward, which encountered "seas" of "many waters;" 

          5. Both have a religious motive for the migration; 

          6. Both have the division of the migrants into civilized and uncivilized groups with long wars between them and the eventual 

          7. Both have destruction of the civilized by the uncivilized; 

          8. Both have the assumption that all native peoples were descended from Israelites and their languages from Hebrew; 

          9. Both have the burial of a "lost book" with "yellow leaves;" 

          10. Both have the description of extensive military fortifications with military observatories or "watch towers" overlooking them; 

          11. Both have a change from monarchy to republican forms of government, and 

          12. Both have the preaching of the gospel in ancient America.


        2. Website that agree: +1


          1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Book_of_Mormon
# of reasons to disagree: +2
# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 1 + 12 + 1 = 14
Total: 16
Total Idea Score: 2 - 16 = -14
Anachronisms:
  • DNA analysis proves that Native Americans are not descendants of Israel, like the Book of Mormon and LDS Prophets have taught. +7
  • The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is no evidence in pre-Columbian history. +7
  • God wouldn’t have changed native American DNA as a way to test our faith with designed implausibility. +5

Value of Concepts in the Book:

  • There are lots of good concepts in the Book of Mormon. +3

  • There are lots of bad concepts in the Book of Mormon. +3
  • The Book of Mormon is racist. +0
  • There are fewer deep life improving concepts in the book of Mormon, and more damaging concepts, than the average book of similar length. +3

Origins

  • Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Mormon from ancient scriptures with assistance from God.  +15
  • There are a lot of good explanations for how the book of Mormon was written that don’t involve God. +15
  • There are too many historical problems with the book of Mormon to say that it is true or inspired. +12
  • The Book of Mormon borrows too much from the Bible. +6
  • Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Mormon from ancient scriptures with assistance from God.

Testimony


  • There are a lot of good explanations for how the book of Mormon was written that don’t involve God. +15
  • There are so many problems with the Book of Mormon that you should doubt spiritual feeling you think you have when reading it.





The LDS church is cult-like

Reasons to agree
  1. Historical Practices: The Church previously required members to make extreme covenants, including symbolic gestures related to life and death. Critics argue these practices were unsettling and indicative of cult-like behavior. The Church used to have you promise to slit your throat if you broke your covenants. This is pretty messed up. 
Reasons to disagree
  1. Evolution of Practices: The Church no longer includes such extreme promises in its rituals, reflecting a shift away from controversial practices.
  2. Shared Christian Beliefs: Mormons follow Christ's teachings as presented in the New Testament and strive to live according to its principles.
  3. Dismissive Labeling: Calling the LDS Church a cult dismisses the faith and humanity of its members, reducing them to stereotypes rather than recognizing them as individuals with complex beliefs and experiences.
  4. Personal Testimonies: Many members, like the writer’s mother, exemplify compassion, morality, and love, challenging the notion that all adherents are misguided or manipulated.
  5. Perspective on "Weirdness": All religions have unique or controversial elements, but focusing solely on these aspects while ignoring the good is inherently biased.
  6. Fair Assessment: Mormons contribute positively to society in ways that non-Mormon traditions may not, and it is unfair to disregard these contributions when evaluating the faith.
  1. Matthew 7:15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”
    1. Critics may interpret this to suggest caution against organizations they perceive as deceptive or overly controlling.
  2. Galatians 1:8“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.”
    1. Some might argue this warns against groups like the LDS Church, which introduces additional scriptures like the Book of Mormon.
  3. 1 Timothy 4:1“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.”
    1. Critics could cite this as a warning against doctrines they see as divergent from mainstream Christianity.
Scriptures that might disagree
  1.  John 7:24“Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
    1. This encourages fair and nuanced judgment, which aligns with avoiding oversimplified or dismissive labels like "cult."
  2. Matthew 7:1-2“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.”
    1. This could be used to advocate against labeling others' beliefs harshly, emphasizing humility and empathy.
  3. Romans 14:4“Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls.
    1. This supports the idea that each person is accountable to God alone, not to the judgment of others.
  4. John 13:34-35“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    1. This aligns with treating others, including Mormons, with love and respect regardless of disagreements.
  5. James 1:27“Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.”
    1. Many argue that the LDS Church exemplifies this type of devotion through its humanitarian work and focus on moral living.
# of reasons to agree: 1
# of reasons to disagree: -7
# of reasons to agree with reasons to decide: 0
# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0
Total Idea Score: -6
Images That agree

Images That disagree

The interest of those who agree: +
  1. Highlighting historical practices or controversial aspects to critique or harm the Church.
The interest of those who disagree: -
  1. Defending the Church's practices, teachings, and members from what they perceive as unjust or biased criticism.
Common Interest:
  1. Promoting understanding, fairness, and constructive dialogue about the Church and its societal role.
Opposing Interest:
  1. Maintaining contrasting narratives: one seeking to expose flaws and another aiming to protect the Church's reputation.
Videos That agree
  1.  Documentaries or interviews highlighting controversial Church practices or critical viewpoints.
  2. Videos featuring testimonies from former members or critics.
Videos That disagree
  1. Church-produced media defending its teachings or addressing criticisms.
  2. Testimonies of members sharing positive personal experiences and the Church’s impact on their lives.
Website that agrees
  1. Blogs or articles detailing critiques of the Church’s history, teachings, or practices.
  2. Advocacy sites for former members or whistleblowers.
Websites that disagree
  1. Official Church websites explain doctrines and dispel myths.
  2. Apologetic platforms address criticisms with counterarguments and evidence.

Related arguments:


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LDS prophets do not seem to have the gift of prophesy




Reasons to agree


  1. LDS Church leaders have often prophesied things that did not happen. +2

  2. The fact that LDS Church leaders were unable to see through Mark William Hofmann is evidence that suggest that LDS prophets do not seem to have the gift of prophesy. 

  3. Joseph Smith seems to have been fooled by the Kinderhook plates. But more than just being tricked, he claimed to have the power to translate them, and made up stuff about them.


Reasons to disagree


  1.   









# of reasons to agree: 2


# of reasons to disagree: -0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 2


# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0


Total Idea Score: 4






Scriptures that agree






Scriptures that disagree











Images That agree





Images That disagree







Interest of those who agree

Interest of those who disagree



Common Interest

Opposing Interest





Videos That agree

Videos That disagree







Related arguments:



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The LDS church lies about Joseph Smith


Reasons to agree: +2


  1. My mission president told us that Joseph Smith never consummated any of his marriages to any of his wives but Emma. However, I've heard that, when the re-organized church was saying he never practiced Polygamy, Brigham Young got sworn affidavits from women in Utah, that he consummated their relationship  That they were married in every sense of the word. 

  2. Not telling all the truth, and letting people make up their own minds is a form of lying. If the church really wanted to be 100% honest, like the 10 commandments teach, they should frankley admit Joseph Smiths mistakes.


Reasons to disagree: -0


  1.  





# of reasons to agree: 2


# of reasons to disagree: -0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to agree: 0


# of reasons to agree with reasons to disagree: -0


Total Idea Score: 0





Website that agree: +2


  1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wives. I grew up in the church in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. I never knew any of this stuff.

  2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Latter_Day_Saint_polygamy


Websites that disagree: -2






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You should try and read Modern Library's 100 best novels

Reasons to agree:
  1. The books on the "Modern Library's 100 best novels" list are good
    1. Reasons to agree:
      1. #13 on the list: "1984," by George Orwell is a good book
        1. Reasons to agree:
          1. Art imitates real life, and real life imitates art. People form the 1950s soviet union say that is what it was like, only 1984 was a little worse. 1984 is an accurate warning. You can't ask much more than a book's main point to be based in an important truth. 
      2. Number 31 on the list, "Animal Farm" by George Orwell, is good. 
        1. Reasons to agree:
          1. Truth is beauty and beauty is truth. If a book is not truthful it is not beautiful. However, obvious truths are often ignored, because people would rather be unique than diligent. A good book can vividly explain obvious truths in such a way that people would feel stupid to ignore. It is an obvious truth that workers' revolution tend to go wrong. However people keep ignoring this fact, because the motivations behind workers revolutions are so strong. Orwell creates an allegory from which you see how stupid these people are. Truths well told:
            1. Whenever you give power to people they typically succumb to the temptations of privilege and power. 
  • 41. "Lord of the Flies," William Golding
  • 74. "A Farewell to Arms," Ernest Hemingway
Need to Read?
  • 3. "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man," James Joyce
  • 4. "Lolita," Vladimir Nabokov
  • 5. "Brave New World," Aldous Huxley
  • 6. "The Sound and the Fury," William Faulkner
  • 7. "Catch-22," Joseph Heller
  • 8. "Darkness at Noon," Arthur Koestler
  • 9. "Sons and Lovers," D. H. Lawrence
  • 11. "Under the Volcano," Malcolm Lowry
  • 12. "The Way of All Flesh," Samuel Butler
  • 14. "I, Claudius," Robert Graves
  • 15. "To the Lighthouse," Virginia Woolf
  • 16. "An American Tragedy," Theodore Dreiser
  • 17. "The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter," Carson McCullers
  • 18. "Slaughterhouse Five," Kurt Vonnegut
  • 19. "Invisible Man," Ralph Ellison
  • 20. "Native Son," Richard Wright
  • 21. "Henderson the Rain King," Saul Bellow
  • 22. "Appointment in Samarra," John O' Hara
  • 23. "U.S.A." (trilogy), John Dos Passos
  • 24. "Winesburg, Ohio," Sherwood Anderson
  • 25. "A Passage to India," E. M. Forster
  • 26. "The Wings of the Dove," Henry James
  • 27. "The Ambassadors," Henry James
  • 28. "Tender Is the Night," F. Scott Fitzgerald
  • 29. "The Studs Lonigan Trilogy," James T. Farrell
  • 30. "The Good Soldier," Ford Madox Ford
  • 32. "The Golden Bowl," Henry James
  • 33. "Sister Carrie," Theodore Dreiser
  • 34. "A Handful of Dust," Evelyn Waugh
  • 35. "As I Lay Dying," William Faulkner
  • 36. "All the King's Men," Robert Penn Warren
  • 37. "The Bridge of San Luis Rey," Thornton Wilder
  • 38. "Howards End," E. M. Forster
  • 39. "Go Tell It on the Mountain," James Baldwin
  • 40. "The Heart of the Matter," Graham Greene
  • 42. "Deliverance," James Dickey
  • 43. "A Dance to the Music of Time" (series), Anthony Powell
  • 44. "Point Counter Point," Aldous Huxley
  • 45. "The Sun Also Rises," Ernest Hemingway
  • 46. "The Secret Agent," Joseph Conrad
  • 47. "Nostromo," Joseph Conrad
  • 48. "The Rainbow," D. H. Lawrence
  • 49. "Women in Love," D. H. Lawrence
  • 50. "Tropic of Cancer," Henry Miller
  • 51. "The Naked and the Dead," Norman Mailer
  • 52. "Portnoy's Complaint," Philip Roth
  • 53. "Pale Fire," Vladimir Nabokov
  • 54. "Light in August," William Faulkner
  • 55. "On the Road," Jack Kerouac
  • 56. "The Maltese Falcon," Dashiell Hammett
  • 57. "Parade's End," Ford Madox Ford
  • 58. "The Age of Innocence," Edith Wharton
  • 59. "Zuleika Dobson," Max Beerbohm
  • 60. "The Moviegoer," Walker Percy
  • 61. "Death Comes to the Archbishop," Willa Cather
  • 62. "From Here to Eternity," James Jones
  • 63. "The Wapshot Chronicles," John Cheever
  • 64. "The Catcher in the Rye," J. D. Salinger
  • 65. "A Clockwork Orange," Anthony Burgess
  • 66. "Of Human Bondage," W. Somerset Maugham
  • 67. "Heart of Darkness," Joseph Conrad
  • 68. "Main Street," Sinclair Lewis
  • 69. "The House of Mirth," Edith Wharton
  • 70. "The Alexandria Quartet," Lawrence Durrell
  • 71. "A High Wind in Jamaica," Richard Hughes
  • 72. "A House for Ms. Biswas," V. S. Naipaul
  • 73. "The Day of the Locust," Nathaniel West
  • 75. "Scoop," Evelyn Waugh
  • 76. "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie," Muriel Spark
  • 77. "Finnegans Wake," James Joyce
  • 78. "Kim," Rudyard Kipling
  • 79. "A Room With a View," E. M. Forster
  • 80. "Brideshead Revisited," Evelyn Waugh
  • 81. "The Adventures of Augie March," Saul Bellow
  • 82. "Angle of Repose," Wallace Stegner
  • 83. "A Bend in the River," V. S. Naipaul
  • 84. "The Death of the Heart," Elizabeth Bowen
  • 85. "Lord Jim," Joseph Conrad
  • 86. "Ragtime," E. L. Doctorow
  • 87. "The Old Wives' Tale," Arnold Bennett
  • 88. "The Call of the Wild," Jack London
  • 89. "Loving," Henry Green
  • 90. "Midnight's Children," Salman Rushdie
  • 91. "Tobacco Road," Erskine Caldwell
  • 92. "Ironweed," William Kennedy
  • 93. "The Magus," John Fowles
  • 94. "Wide Sargasso Sea," Jean Rhys
  • 95. "Under the Net," Iris Murdoch
  • 96. "Sophie's Choice," William Styron
  • 97. "The Sheltering Sky," Paul Bowles
  • 98. "The Postman Always Rings Twice," James M. Cain
  • 99. "The Ginger Man," J. P. Donleavy
  • 100. "The Magnificent Ambersons," Booth Tarkington

"Ulysses," by James Joyce is not a great book

Reasons to agree:

  1. Works of literature should not be measured by how much work went into them. Sure a lot of work went into writing Ulysses. But writing shouldn't just be a game where someone says, look at all this fancy work I can do, and people pat themselves on the back for being able to notice the fancy work. 
  2. Ulysses is tiresome
  3. Ulysses is tedious
  4. Joyce is a pseudo-intellectual. Scientist are intellects. They propose a hypothesis  Make it as clear as possible, and gather evidence to support or weaken the hypothesis. If Joyce believes things, he should state them clearly, make a list of logical reasons to support those conclusion, and encourage other people to submit their reasons to agree or disagree with his conclusion. We can do that now. Lets advance the science of thinking. Lets be clear. Lets be organized. If you believe your ideas are important you owe it to your readers to be clear, comprehensible, and transparent. Genius does not need to hide itself so that only fellow geniuses can comprehend, but true Genius is making truth plain.
  5. "By turning literature from entertaining stories into puzzle solving, I believe he has turned many children away from reading." (From Amazon).

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